(February 3, 2019 at 7:43 pm)Belaqua Wrote:

(February 3, 2019 at 6:28 am)Nomad Wrote: Up until the 1860s the rcc based their ideology on abortion on what they considered to be actual personhood*.  Hence why abortion was deemed legal by the church up to 13 weeks.

*A very subjective and unscientific approach was used, mainly dealing with the idea of ensoulment and when that happened.

That's interesting; I didn't know that. 

Dante says somewhere that the fetus isn't ensouled until it has reached a certain stage of development. (40 days...?) Because he thought a human soul requires a form more or less human-shaped to support it. But he doesn't connect this with abortion, and I didn't know that it was official church policy.

In Judaism, the Talmud says the embryo is mere liquid for the first 40 days. But even after that, the fetus is not a living person. They aren't a living person until at least half of them has come out into the air during birth. Then they have the legal protection of being a person. However, they aren't fully viable until they have lived 30 days after birth. Some Jewish people say that they aren't fully viable until after they have graduated from medical school.

(February 1, 2019 at 2:18 pm)Drich Wrote:

(February 1, 2019 at 1:17 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: I consider myself pro-choice, but I’m very personally conflicted on the subject. We have bodily autonomy and new life, and I’m not sure how we can ever fairly prioritize one over the other. It’s sucky thing no matter which way you slice it.

not for nothing the same feeling you feel now is how we feel some from inception. it all boils down to when you feel life starts. these pro choicers say the baby isn't a baby till it is removed and cord cut/completely  from mom.

Yeah, I don’t agree with that at all.  I also don’t think viability should be the only metric considered. I don’t have all the answers, and I acknowledge my position is clouded with bias due to the fact that I have two planned children, but I’m very uncomfortable with how flippant pro-choice folks can be on the subject of ending life.

(February 2, 2019 at 10:18 am)LadyForCamus Wrote:

(February 1, 2019 at 10:16 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote: Killing is killing. Abortion is nothing but a woman's decision to escape the dept that might result from a moment of lust that she failed to control.

So, what should be the punishment for the lust of the man who also failed to control himself? Maybe we should tie up his dick for the nine months the woman is forced to carry the baby, eh?

The exact same punishment for the male:

Quote:Sura 24, The Quran:
Sahih International

(2) The [unmarried] woman or [unmarried] man found guilty of sexual intercourse - lash each one of them with a hundred lashes, and do not be taken by pity for them in the religion of Allah, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. And let a group of the believers witness their punishment.

Why are you ignoring that the Quran said very clearly about this matter ?

It is not just Islamophobic; it's more than that from your side.

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(February 2, 2019 at 10:49 am)Mermaid Wrote:

(February 1, 2019 at 10:16 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote: Abortion is nothing but a woman's decision 

Full stop.

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(February 1, 2019 at 10:16 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote: Pure evil, disgusting if you ask me.

Nobody's asking you. It's not about you.

I didn't quote the Quran right. It's my fault.

As verse 2 of Sura 24 states; both males and females must be punished for that sin; equally.

Of course it concerns me; I am very concerned about the "bastard" who grew up to be a gangster because "mommy had him when she was drunk" and "daddy was a drunk fuck who beat the hell out of him then took off".

(February 4, 2019 at 7:39 am)AtlasS33 Wrote:

(February 2, 2019 at 10:18 am)LadyForCamus Wrote: So, what should be the punishment for the lust of the man who also failed to control himself? Maybe we should tie up his dick for the nine months the woman is forced to carry the baby, eh?

The exact same punishment for the male:

Quote:Sura 24, The Quran:
Sahih International

(2) The [unmarried] woman or [unmarried] man found guilty of sexual intercourse - lash each one of them with a hundred lashes, and do not be taken by pity for them in the religion of Allah, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. And let a group of the believers witness their punishment.

Why are you ignoring that the Quran said very clearly about this matter ?

It is not just Islamophobic; it's more than that from your side.

I'm a little curious, Atlas. In the Torah, when someone causes a pregnant woman to miscarry, they are liable for a fine, as opposed to death for murder or refuge in a sanctuary city for manslaughter. From this we understand that terminating a pregnancy is not murder.

Is there anything similar in the Koran about striking a pregnant woman and causing her to miscarry?

(February 2, 2019 at 6:08 pm)Yonadav Wrote: There are all kinds of things that we can't do with our bodies because bodily autonomy isn't actually a real thing. It's a rhetorical concept made up by feminists exclusively for the issue of abortion. And as I have repeatedly said, bodily autonomy simply is not part of the legal reasoning that permits abortion. If I had bodily autonomy, I would be able to fill my body up with black tar heroin. People who have a body mapping dysfunction that makes them feel that their left arm is not supposed to be a part of their body would simply be able to tell a surgeon to cut their arm off. Transsexuals would not need a professional diagnosis and extensive counseling prior to SRS.

The problem isn't "body autonomy"; "body autonomy" is an innate capacity; our bodies are our own.

But a child is not; they are souls separate from us, a new lifeforms. Calling them "our own" is the crime, and leaching over their life is a bigger crime.

They are just bullying the child because he/she is a mere feetus. If he/she got some strength to fight back, they will all shut up.

(February 4, 2019 at 7:39 am)AtlasS33 Wrote:

(February 2, 2019 at 10:18 am)LadyForCamus Wrote: So, what should be the punishment for the lust of the man who also failed to control himself? Maybe we should tie up his dick for the nine months the woman is forced to carry the baby, eh?

The exact same punishment for the male:

Quote:Sura 24, The Quran:
Sahih International

(2) The [unmarried] woman or [unmarried] man found guilty of sexual intercourse - lash each one of them with a hundred lashes, and do not be taken by pity for them in the religion of Allah, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. And let a group of the believers witness their punishment.

Why are you ignoring that the Quran said very clearly about this matter ?

It is not just Islamophobic; it's more than that from your side.

LOL... So, according to you and your religion men and women are physically equal then, right? I'll bet muslim boxers fight women in the ring, because a punch is the same for a 60kg woman as for a 120 kg man... Is that why you beat your wives? I'm glad islam promotes gender equality - but why is it only when it suits the barbarian goat-f*ckers, who came up with it?...

Incidentally - do you also whip a goat, when some married muslim is caught with his d*ck inside it?

Why do you ignore the fact, that an unfaithful man DOESN'T have to carry his unwanted bastard inside himself for nine months and your quran doesn't say sh*t about that -or does it?. It's not just standard muslim misogyny; it's more like incel talk, which is not surprising, coming from you. Are you upset that women f*ck other guys, but not you? Is that why you're bitter about them being able to avoid having unwanted children as punishment?

(February 4, 2019 at 7:56 am)Yonadav Wrote:

(February 4, 2019 at 7:39 am)AtlasS33 Wrote: The exact same punishment for the male:



Why are you ignoring that the Quran said very clearly about this matter ?

It is not just Islamophobic; it's more than that from your side.

I'm a little curious, Atlas. In the Torah, when someone causes a pregnant woman to miscarry, they are liable for a fine, as opposed to death for murder or refuge in a sanctuary city for manslaughter. From this we understand that terminating a pregnancy is not murder.

Is there anything similar in the Koran about striking a pregnant woman and causing her to miscarry?

No. The only verse I can find about killing children is this:

Quote:Surah 17, The Quran:
Sahih International

(31) And do not kill your children for fear of poverty. We provide for them and for you. Indeed, their killing is ever a great sin.

The law categorized it as "killing". But is the feetus a lifeform? I think it is, totally

(February 4, 2019 at 8:09 am)AtlasS33 Wrote:

(February 2, 2019 at 6:08 pm)Yonadav Wrote: There are all kinds of things that we can't do with our bodies because bodily autonomy isn't actually a real thing. It's a rhetorical concept made up by feminists exclusively for the issue of abortion. And as I have repeatedly said, bodily autonomy simply is not part of the legal reasoning that permits abortion. If I had bodily autonomy, I would be able to fill my body up with black tar heroin. People who have a body mapping dysfunction that makes them feel that their left arm is not supposed to be a part of their body would simply be able to tell a surgeon to cut their arm off. Transsexuals would not need a professional diagnosis and extensive counseling prior to SRS.

The problem isn't "body autonomy"; "body autonomy" is an innate capacity; our bodies are our own.

But a child is not; they are souls separate from us, a new lifeforms. Calling them "our own" is the crime, and leaching over their life is a bigger crime.

They are just bullying the child because he/she is a mere feetus. If he/she got some strength to fight back, they will all shut up.

But are there any verses in the Koran about causing a woman to miscarry? There is in the Torah. And the penalty isn't the same as the penalty for murder or manslaughter. From this, we derive that the unborn are not persons with the rights of people. We don't condone abortion for anything other than the health of the woman, but abortion isn't murder.

(February 4, 2019 at 7:39 am)AtlasS33 Wrote:

(February 2, 2019 at 10:18 am)LadyForCamus Wrote: So, what should be the punishment for the lust of the man who also failed to control himself? Maybe we should tie up his dick for the nine months the woman is forced to carry the baby, eh?

The exact same punishment for the male

Well, it’s not exactly the same, now is it?  Since, ya know...the male doesn’t have to carry and birth the baby, and take care of it after it’s born.

My mom did one after my twin sisters. She had 3 little mouths to feed, low income cow manure to clean, feed and milk the cows, she couldn't even take care of us. She tells me this with sorrow and I know it wasn't an easy decision. My dad thought they could make it, but respected her decision.

The little moralists on this are the biggest hypocrites. When they are in the womb they are sacred. After they are born they are fucked.