(February 12, 2019 at 9:03 pm)HappySkeptic Wrote: Religion fashions stories that provide meaning to those who believe in them. 

These stories start with the big questions of "what exists", to which the bible answers "A God, who created a Heaven and an Earth, and designed and created Man and every living thing, and want's Man's obedience".  From that foundation, we get stories about fictional characters in Jewish tradition, that attempt to explain the interaction of this God with mankind.

The question of "What exists" is a scientific question, for the most part.  Science can only explain so far, but nothing we have discovered has anything to do with gods, or with any supernatural causes for anything.

No these stories don't start with the questions of what exists, they start with the question of what is the meaning of what exists. Which is not a scientific question at all. Hence why what proceeds are narratives and stories with morals and meanings, and not some bland mechanistic explanations. Hence why they read like the sort of moral stories we tell children, like the three little pigs, or the ugly ducking.

Atheists like yourself make a very stupid assumption, that these texts share more in common with science books, then things they actually parallel. They also make a silly assumption, that people in the past lacked any real self-awareness, or understanding of their own limitations, such as their lack of ability to explain the mechanical origins of the universe. Most people don't even care about these questions, let alone raise them to level of importance often associated with religious beliefs, they're just trying to find something to live for.

Your own scientific curiosities, desires to understand science, are less driven by some primordial biological urge, and more driven by your own unique historical contexts, living in age where we have the tools to explore such questions, and is more or less a hobbyist pursuit for the most of us. To apply it to the ancient world, is just anachronistic.

(February 12, 2019 at 9:32 am)Abaddon_ire Wrote: One would think that after all that practice one of the religions would have gotten it right by now...

what makes you think they haven't?

  Well...there's you....

(February 13, 2019 at 12:17 pm)Acrobat Wrote: No these stories don't start with the questions of what exists, they start with the question of what is the meaning of what exists. Which is not a scientific question at all. Hence why what proceeds are narratives and stories with morals and meanings, and not some bland mechanistic explanations. Hence why they read like the sort of moral stories we tell children, like the three little pigs, or the ugly ducking.

Atheists like yourself make a very stupid assumption, that these texts share more in common with science books, then things they actually parallel. They also make a silly assumption, that people in the past lacked any real self-awareness, or understanding of their own limitations, such as their  lack of ability to explain the mechanical origins of the universe. Most people don't even care about these questions, let alone raise them to level of importance often associated with religious beliefs, they're just trying to find something to live for.

Your own scientific curiosities, desires to understand science, are less driven by some primordial biological urge, and more driven by your own unique historical contexts, living in age where we have the tools to explore such questions, and is more or less a hobbyist pursuit for the most of us. To apply it to the ancient world, is just anachronistic.

My argument is that science has much to offer religion, and religion has zero to offer science.

I'll rephrase.  Religion does not start with "what exists", but theology does.  Religion does indeed start as a personal need for answers and meaning.  But, the answers get woven into theology, and then get passed down as revealed 'knowledge' to the next generation.

Principles such as 'love your neighbor' are valuable, but it is found in almost every culture.  People don't need theology for that.  Theology brings in commands, and gods, and worship, and blood sacrifice, and obedience, and a story of eternal torture or salvation.  Theologies are built on a foundation of "what exists".  They need gods and the interaction of prophets with the gods, as their first principles.

Without an actual god, Christianity is left with a few parables (some of which I dispute are actually good), and a few lessons in the culture of the times (not many of which we value today).

(February 12, 2019 at 4:24 pm)Acrobat Wrote:

(February 12, 2019 at 3:30 pm)Gawdzilla Sama Wrote: Religion was a placeholder for science. Unfortunately it became vacuum-welded to society.

No, religion never was a placeholder for science, anymore so then great novels, art, poetry are placeholders for science. 

People cling to religions for questions regarding meaning, how one ought to live life, how things ought to be. Religions are about dealing with suffering, our desire for community, about the values and virtues we ought to embody. None of which are scientific questions, since all science provides us is answers to how things are.

Religion explained things until science got it right.

(February 13, 2019 at 1:46 pm)HappySkeptic Wrote: Religion's basis is incorrect, so how can the stories about this God's interaction with man be useful?  How can the book of Job tell us anything moral?  It says that God and Satan made a bet, and killed Job's family and took away everything.  The only answer to "why" is that it "glorified God" (and Job gets given a new family -- too bad for the old one).  Well, considering that God doesn't exist, how does that little gem come to be useful?

That’s not the take way from the book of Job. The primary drama in the book of Job, is Jobs rejection of a various theodicies, such as suffering being a punishment from God, or for the sake of teaching Job a lesson, etc… all of which he rejects, and none of which the God character in Job confirms, and whose own answer is an appeal to incomprehensible mystery, a purpose which is not Job’s to know.

The central drama might be framed in the gimmick of God and Satan having a bet, but this is more peripheral than central to it’s take away.

Quote:The stories of bronze-age sheep farmers, in a world infested by gods of opposing tribes (but their god is stronger), is pretty much without value.  I would much rather read the ancient poets and philosophers than the religious authors.

Perhaps for you that’s true, its just not true for them, or for many believers, who find little values in the ancients poets and philosopher you might like. They find a great deal more value in books like Job, or the story of Joseph and his brothers, of David and Nathan, of Jonah, of Christ’s death and suffering, of Exodus.

For black slaves the story of Exodus, of Christs suffering and redemption were far more valuable than anything those rich ancients poets and philosophers could offer.

Quote:I'll rephrase.  Religion does not start with "what exists", but theology does.  Religion does indeed start as a personal need for answers and meaning. 

Theology by definition is about the nature of God, not of reality. If an understanding of reality plays any purpose in theology, it what this reality, the nature of the world, says about the nature of God.

Whether such a world, reveals a God of Love,  or some sort of indifferent being, of malicious being, or even no being at all.

A parallel to theological view of reality, would be something akin to nihilism, declaring the absence of meaning and purpose in our world. The sum total of scientific facts, might lead to one to such a view, but the view itself is not scientific, or reducible to science, regardless if it’s true or not.

Quote:But, the answers get woven into theology, and then get passed down as revealed 'knowledge' to the next generation.

If you believe life has some intrinsic purpose and meaning, then whatever aspects of that meaning you may have perceived or understood in your life, is one you care a great deal about passing on to subsequent generations. You want their lives to be informed by this sort of understanding you’ve acquired through experience and community, so that every generation isn’t starting from scratch, but building on top of the same bricks laid down by their forefathers.

There’s very little more important to me as parent, to pass on that meaning to my children, for them to understand and see it to, more so than anything that might classify as a scientific understanding of the world. I want them to understand how to live in the world, and not merely understand its parts.

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(February 13, 2019 at 1:56 pm)Gawdzilla Sama Wrote:

(February 12, 2019 at 4:24 pm)Acrobat Wrote: No, religion never was a placeholder for science, anymore so then great novels, art, poetry are placeholders for science. 

People cling to religions for questions regarding meaning, how one ought to live life, how things ought to be. Religions are about dealing with suffering, our desire for community, about the values and virtues we ought to embody. None of which are scientific questions, since all science provides us is answers to how things are.

Religion explained things until science got it right.

"if all possible scientific questions be answered, the problems of life have still not been touched at all.' -Wittgenstein.


I think such views common among many atheists that you expressed, reveal a very distorted understanding of human beings. Sciences provides answers to questions, hardly anyone is asking.

When some ancient religion begs offerings to a god to keep a storm at bay for men setting out to sea, the purpose isn't to give an explanation for the weather, but to calm the anxiety and dread of those setting out to sea. The thing that people are most deeply wanting to know, are not answers to scientific questions, but those answers for having something to live for, to keep us going and living, rather than wallowing in dread and despair.

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(February 13, 2019 at 1:46 pm)HappySkeptic Wrote: Principles such as 'love your neighbor' are valuable, but it is found in almost every culture.  People don't need theology for that.  Theology brings in commands, and gods, and worship, and blood sacrifice, and obedience, and a story of eternal torture or salvation.  Theologies are built on a foundation of "what exists".  They need gods and the interaction of prophets with the gods, as their first principles.

It depends, love your neighbor as some sort of subjective goal, a rule of thumb, one places on themselves, like going keto, or getting off social media, or signing your signature with smily faces etc.. requires no religion. Seeing it as a command, that we are commanded to love our neighbors, as almost all these same religious cultures hold, does.

Theologies and religious ground things like moral values, into being seen as eternal and immutable, as real obligations and laws.

(February 13, 2019 at 2:41 pm)Acrobat Wrote: Perhaps for you that’s true, its just not true for them, or for many believers, who find little values in the ancients poets and philosopher you might like. They find a great deal more value in books like Job, or the story of Joseph and his brothers, of David and Nathan, of Jonah, of Christ’s death and suffering, of Exodus.

For black slaves the story of Exodus, of Christs suffering and redemption were far more valuable than anything those rich ancients poets and philosophers could offer.

That's not at all how or why transported people came to christ. It was valuable -to their owners-. Good on them for finding something in there after having been forcible stripped of their own rich ancient poetry and philosophy, but let's make sure we don't start combining christian apologetics with revisionism for the billionth time. The worlds had enough of that.

The same was broadly true of european and classical pagan populations, whose rich ancient poetry and philosophy the christ spreading lot simply couldn't get enough of. They decided, like we do, to steal it and claim it for themselves, lol.

(February 13, 2019 at 3:07 pm)Gae Bolga Wrote:

(February 13, 2019 at 2:41 pm)Acrobat Wrote: Perhaps for you that’s true, its just not true for them, or for many believers, who find little values in the ancients poets and philosopher you might like. They find a great deal more value in books like Job, or the story of Joseph and his brothers, of David and Nathan, of Jonah, of Christ’s death and suffering, of Exodus.

For black slaves the story of Exodus, of Christs suffering and redemption were far more valuable than anything those rich ancients poets and philosophers could offer.

That's not at all how or why transported people came to christ. It was valuable -to their owners-. Good on them for finding something in there after having been forcible stripped of their own rich ancient poetry and philosophy, but let's make sure we don't start combining christian apologetics with revisionism for the billionth time. The worlds had enough of that.

The same was broadly true of european and classical pagan populations, whose rich ancient poetry and philosophy the christ spreading lot simply couldn't get enough of. They decided, like we do, to steal it and claim it for themselves, lol.

Stop erecting strawman, I didn’t say anything how they came to Christ.

Story like that of Exodus were valuable to slaves, in fact Slave owners would edit out such narratives from the version of the Bible they gave slaves, for fear of the sort of connection they might have made with it.

It should come as no surprises as to why slaves would have connected to a narrative in which God frees his people out of slavery out of hand of their oppressors, and why slave owners were so worried about such narratives that they felt the need to edit them out of their own holy books.

What comes as no surprise to me was the infliction of christianity on those poor bastards, in the first place. Just as your not realizing how idiotic your comments about ancient poets and philosphers was doesn't surprise me.

Christianity is based upon a commitment not to realize key issues central to the creation and maintenance of the faith, especially with respect to those same ancient poets and philosophers, after all... lol.

Christians are and have always been mightily impressed by both, anytime that they've been granted the privilege to be so..so much so that they included them as their own.

(February 13, 2019 at 4:28 pm)Gae Bolga Wrote: What comes as no surprise to me was the infliction of christianity on those poor bastards, in the first place. Just as your not realizing how idiotic your comments about ancient poets and philosphers was doesn't surprise me.

Christianity is based upon a commitment not to realize key issues central to the creation and maintenance of the faith, especially with respect to those same ancient poets and philosophers, after all... lol.

Christians are and have always been mightily impressed by both, anytime that they've been granted the privilege to be so..so much so that they included them as their own.

Lol even more red herrings. Stick to arguing some point I actually raised.