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RE: Is atheism a belief?
February 26, 2019 at 3:06 pm
(This post was last modified: February 26, 2019 at 3:11 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Probably because the question "which" is a question of specificity rather than coherence. I'm specifically responding to notions of incoherence argued by lack of specificity as a justification for a novel position on the status of one's own belief.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Is atheism a belief?
February 26, 2019 at 4:52 pm
(February 26, 2019 at 9:15 am)Gae Bolga Wrote: They can all be rejected out of hand for attempting to manufacture a referent rather than describe one.
Good; you have given the reasons why you reject these concepts of god.
Your atheism is not simply a lack, but a commitment to certain criteria by which you judge and reject concepts.
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RE: Is atheism a belief?
February 26, 2019 at 4:59 pm
(This post was last modified: February 26, 2019 at 5:02 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(February 26, 2019 at 4:52 pm)Belaqua Wrote: (February 26, 2019 at 9:15 am)Gae Bolga Wrote: They can all be rejected out of hand for attempting to manufacture a referent rather than describe one.
Good; you have given the reasons why you reject these concepts of god.
Your atheism is not simply a lack, but a commitment to certain criteria by which you judge and reject concepts.
Sure, I'll refer you to some of my other comments in thread about this
Quote:It's a fact of education and maturity that I could not possibly have known how full of shit they actually were as a young child. I was working on curious george at the time, not secular philosophy, scientific theory, critical skepticism, or anthropology.
I have all kinds of reasons and rationalizations for things today that I didn't possess when I was working on curious george, not just about gods..either, ofc. When I was working on curious george the only reason I could have given you for my atheism..a term I would not have recognized, would be to assert that I didn't believe in gods. Why didn't I believe in gods? No reason known or in particular.
All of the rest since then and all that you might see on the boards today is just stuff surrounding that initial a-rational intuition. I suspect that people who grew up believing can identify the thing that "made them atheists" in a way that I simply couldn't. There are atheists for reason x.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Is atheism a belief?
February 26, 2019 at 5:21 pm
(This post was last modified: February 26, 2019 at 5:24 pm by Bucky Ball.)
(February 26, 2019 at 4:59 pm)Belaqua Wrote: [quote pid='1887723' dateline='1551214336']
Good; you have given the reasons why you reject these concepts of god.
Your atheism is not simply a lack, but a commitment to certain criteria by which you judge and reject concepts.
False. You don't know that.
Christians claim that they come up against the "Dark Night of the Soul", (John of the Cross), "The Cloud of Unknowing" (Medieval unknown author), and St. Paul saying faith is a gift.
You don't know anything about why any one non-believer rejects belief, AND it could be the same sorts of things that Christians claim about their positions.
You don't know if there are specific criteria. It could be all kinds of other things, like having experienced the hypocrisy of religionists, abuse from religionists, and all sorts of other unconscious or sub-conscious aversions.
Every religion is true one way or another. It is true when understood metaphorically. But when it gets stuck in its own metaphors, interpreting them as facts, then you are in trouble. - Joseph Campbell 
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RE: Is atheism a belief?
February 26, 2019 at 5:55 pm
(This post was last modified: February 26, 2019 at 5:55 pm by Belacqua.)
(February 26, 2019 at 5:21 pm)Bucky Ball Wrote: You don't know if there are specific criteria. It could be all kinds of other things, like having experienced the hypocrisy of religionists, abuse from religionists, and all sorts of other unconscious or sub-conscious aversions.
That's true.
There are all kinds of reasons why people can reject claims. There are good reasons and less good reasons. That's why it's good for us to be aware of our reasons and not claim that we don't have them.
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RE: Is atheism a belief?
February 26, 2019 at 5:55 pm
(This post was last modified: February 26, 2019 at 5:56 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Nod to the non reasons as well, lol.
Honestly, what reason do you think I would have had at five? I want to hear this.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Is atheism a belief?
February 26, 2019 at 6:13 pm
(February 26, 2019 at 5:55 pm)Gae Bolga Wrote: Nod to the non reasons as well, lol.
Honestly, what reason do you think I would have had at five? I want to hear this.
At age 5? Before the ability to think abstractly? I'd love to know the cause. I makes perfect sense to me if your parents , or some other important person in your life were atheists. I think it's problematic otherwise.
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RE: Is atheism a belief?
February 26, 2019 at 6:16 pm
(February 26, 2019 at 5:55 pm)Belaqua Wrote: (February 26, 2019 at 5:21 pm)Bucky Ball Wrote: You don't know if there are specific criteria. It could be all kinds of other things, like having experienced the hypocrisy of religionists, abuse from religionists, and all sorts of other unconscious or sub-conscious aversions.
That's true.
There are all kinds of reasons why people can reject claims. There are good reasons and less good reasons. That's why it's good for us to be aware of our reasons and not claim that we don't have them.
So then, your commitment to your criteria allows you to categorize the criteria others are committed to, and make absolute generalizations about them.
Every religion is true one way or another. It is true when understood metaphorically. But when it gets stuck in its own metaphors, interpreting them as facts, then you are in trouble. - Joseph Campbell
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RE: Is atheism a belief?
February 26, 2019 at 6:16 pm
(This post was last modified: February 26, 2019 at 6:17 pm by Belacqua.)
(February 26, 2019 at 5:55 pm)Gae Bolga Wrote: Honestly, what reason do you think I would have had at five? I want to hear this.
I can't know that. Unlike some people, I have no faith in my mind reading abilities.
But I'm not so interested in the opinions of kindergarten kids. Thinking adults accept or reject propositions based on criteria. If they accept or reject propositions based on no criteria, they are not reasoning.
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RE: Is atheism a belief?
February 26, 2019 at 6:28 pm
(This post was last modified: February 26, 2019 at 6:29 pm by Bucky Ball.)
(February 26, 2019 at 6:16 pm)Belaqua Wrote: (February 26, 2019 at 5:55 pm)Gae Bolga Wrote: Honestly, what reason do you think I would have had at five? I want to hear this.
I can't know that. Unlike some people, I have no faith in my mind reading abilities.
But I'm not so interested in the opinions of kindergarten kids. Thinking adults accept or reject propositions based on criteria. If they accept or reject propositions based on no criteria, they are not reasoning.
Fallacy of the excluded middle. There are all sorts of non-reasoned determinants ... emotional, unspoken, unrecognized, partially recognized etc.
Do people fall in love with their partners due to "reason" ? Valuing reason is itself a criteria. Have you demonstrated it's a good one ?
Maybe their personality type is not INTJ. Maybe they are emotion-driven.
Every religion is true one way or another. It is true when understood metaphorically. But when it gets stuck in its own metaphors, interpreting them as facts, then you are in trouble. - Joseph Campbell
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