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RE: Is atheism a belief?
March 4, 2019 at 7:45 am
(March 4, 2019 at 7:21 am)Deesse23 Wrote: We all either believe something or we dont. We either claim to know something is true, false or we say "i dont know". The issue of belief has two position, the position of knowledge three. Thats why i asked him how he cant know what he believes, in order to point out the fallacious (imho) position of "i dont know if i believe x".
This would be true if each of us was a spark of immortal reason trapped temporarily in an earthly body.
But that's not what we're like.
We are our bodies. Our bodies are made of meat, and the brain is where the thoughts happen, and the brain has different parts. There is no reason to think that any one set of thoughts has to be compatible with any other, or that what one part of the mind wants is not contradicted by what another part of the mind wants.
It's possible to be conflicted and confused. It's possible to be unsure about important things.
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RE: Is atheism a belief?
March 4, 2019 at 7:58 am
(March 4, 2019 at 7:17 am)Deesse23 Wrote: (March 3, 2019 at 4:50 pm)bennyboy Wrote: Nope. "Agnostic" is a better descriptor for me, tyvm. Check it out:
Q: Do you believe in a God / gods?
Me: I don't know. You dont know if you believe something?  
That's right. I listed near the beginning of the thread various conditions that would be required in order to form and assert a coherent belief. I also discussed conditional beliefs-- beliefs that are dependent on some other aspect of reality-- these lead to a contingent or superpositional belief. You might as well ask me if I'm a particle or a wave.
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RE: Is atheism a belief?
March 4, 2019 at 8:01 am
(This post was last modified: March 4, 2019 at 8:03 am by Deesse23.)
(March 4, 2019 at 7:45 am)Belaqua Wrote: (March 4, 2019 at 7:21 am)Deesse23 Wrote: We all either believe something or we dont. We either claim to know something is true, false or we say "i dont know". The issue of belief has two position, the position of knowledge three. Thats why i asked him how he cant know what he believes, in order to point out the fallacious (imho) position of "i dont know if i believe x".
This would be true if each of us was a spark of immortal reason trapped temporarily in an earthly body.
But that's not what we're like.
We are our bodies. Our bodies are made of meat, and the brain is where the thoughts happen, and the brain has different parts. There is no reason to think that any one set of thoughts has to be compatible with any other, or that what one part of the mind wants is not contradicted by what another part of the mind wants.
It's possible to be conflicted and confused. It's possible to be unsure about important things.
If you are not sure, then you dont believe. Now go along with claiming that part of one may believe and another part may not. 
(March 4, 2019 at 7:58 am)bennyboy Wrote: (March 4, 2019 at 7:17 am)Deesse23 Wrote: You dont know if you believe something?
That's right. I listed near the beginning of the thread various conditions that would be required in order to form and assert a coherent belief. I also discussed conditional beliefs-- beliefs that are dependent on some other aspect of reality-- these lead to a contingent or superpositional belief. You might as well ask me if I'm a particle or a wave.
If the condition is fulfilled, you believe, if not, then you dont. No?
Cetero censeo religionem delendam esse
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RE: Is atheism a belief?
March 4, 2019 at 9:03 am
(March 4, 2019 at 7:21 am)Deesse23 Wrote: (March 3, 2019 at 10:00 pm)PRJA93 Wrote: So you're an agnostic atheist. Thanks. You don't hold a belief in god and you don't claim to have knowledge of one. Agnostic atheist. Wrong, imho.
Since he claimed not to know if he believes in a god. Not knowing if he believes in a god, would make him something other than a theist or atheist, which is imho not possible.
We all either believe something or we dont. We either claim to know something is true, false or we say "i dont know". The issue of belief has two position, the position of knowledge three. Thats why i asked him how he cant know what he believes, in order to point out the fallacious (imho) position of "i dont know if i believe x".
And if you don't know that you believe in something, you probably don't believe it. It's as good as saying you don't believe it.
Agnostic atheist.
If you're frightened of dying, and you're holding on, you'll see devils tearing your life away. But if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels, freeing you from the Earth.
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RE: Is atheism a belief?
March 4, 2019 at 9:21 am
(This post was last modified: March 4, 2019 at 9:23 am by bennyboy.)
(March 4, 2019 at 8:01 am)Deesse23 Wrote: If the condition is fulfilled, you believe, if not, then you dont. No? That's right. You can believe to the extant that X is true, but have no way of knowing whether X is true.
(March 4, 2019 at 9:03 am)PRJA93 Wrote: Agnostic atheist.
I'm not sure why you're doing this. I'm telling you I have reasons why I don't identify as an atheist, but you are trying to railroad me into that assignation anyway.
At best, it's bad semantics. At worst, it's fucking rude.
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RE: Is atheism a belief?
March 4, 2019 at 9:33 am
(This post was last modified: March 4, 2019 at 9:33 am by EgoDeath.)
(March 4, 2019 at 9:21 am)bennyboy Wrote: I'm not sure why you're doing this. I'm telling you I have reasons why I don't identify as an atheist, but you are trying to railroad me into that assignation anyway.
At best, it's bad semantics. At worst, it's fucking rude.
You can call it whatever you like, rude, bad semantics, I'm not concerned with what you think when what you're describing is literally an agnostic atheist. Call yourself a blue unicorn for all I care, it doesn't make you a blue unicorn. But you ARE describing yourself as an agnostic atheist. Don't want to call yourself that? That's fine. That's a weird aversion to have, but okay.
If you're frightened of dying, and you're holding on, you'll see devils tearing your life away. But if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels, freeing you from the Earth.
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RE: Is atheism a belief?
March 4, 2019 at 10:18 am
(This post was last modified: March 4, 2019 at 10:23 am by bennyboy.)
(March 4, 2019 at 9:33 am)PRJA93 Wrote: (March 4, 2019 at 9:21 am)bennyboy Wrote: I'm not sure why you're doing this. I'm telling you I have reasons why I don't identify as an atheist, but you are trying to railroad me into that assignation anyway.
At best, it's bad semantics. At worst, it's fucking rude.
You can call it whatever you like, rude, bad semantics, I'm not concerned with what you think when what you're describing is literally an agnostic atheist. Call yourself a blue unicorn for all I care, it doesn't make you a blue unicorn. But you ARE describing yourself as an agnostic atheist. Don't want to call yourself that? That's fine. That's a weird aversion to have, but okay.
Nope. I'm describing myself as agnostic. I think that's pretty clear. I don't believe in weak atheism as a position worth taking, and I'm not a strong atheist.
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RE: Is atheism a belief?
March 4, 2019 at 10:26 am
You don't believe that a position you hold, and the position held by most atheists, is worth taking. That's precious.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Is atheism a belief?
March 4, 2019 at 10:31 am
(March 4, 2019 at 10:18 am)bennyboy Wrote: (March 4, 2019 at 9:33 am)PRJA93 Wrote: You can call it whatever you like, rude, bad semantics, I'm not concerned with what you think when what you're describing is literally an agnostic atheist. Call yourself a blue unicorn for all I care, it doesn't make you a blue unicorn. But you ARE describing yourself as an agnostic atheist. Don't want to call yourself that? That's fine. That's a weird aversion to have, but okay.
Nope. I'm describing myself as agnostic. I think that's pretty clear. I don't believe in weak atheism as a position worth taking, and I'm not a strong atheist.
You don't hold a belief in a god or gods. And you're agnostic to their existence. You're an agnostic atheist. Thanks for coming.
If you're frightened of dying, and you're holding on, you'll see devils tearing your life away. But if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels, freeing you from the Earth.
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RE: Is atheism a belief?
March 4, 2019 at 11:25 am
(March 4, 2019 at 9:21 am)bennyboy Wrote: (March 4, 2019 at 8:01 am)Deesse23 Wrote: If the condition is fulfilled, you believe, if not, then you dont. No? That's right. You can believe to the extant that X is true, but have no way of knowing whether X is true. What does that have to do with you (not) knowing what you actually believe?
The word "know" in this sentence has nothing to do with the content of your belief, just with your belief per se. In your quote "know" is used in relation to the content. This is not the same.
Cetero censeo religionem delendam esse
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