(March 12, 2019 at 7:39 pm)The Valkyrie Wrote:

(March 12, 2019 at 6:23 pm)bennyboy Wrote: --edit--

bump.

Bump Bump.

Twin bumps!

Just don't come at me with a baby bump asking to swab my cheeks, and we're good!

(March 12, 2019 at 7:39 pm)The Valkyrie Wrote:

(March 12, 2019 at 6:23 pm)bennyboy Wrote: --edit--

bump.

Bump Bump.

Twin bumps!

I'm sure atheists believe in some things, or am I wrong about that?

Just because it's disbelief or the conviction there's no possibility a creator god exists doesn't mean they don't believe in other things, I think, things like loyalty or servitude.

(March 14, 2019 at 3:09 am)Catharsis Wrote: I'm sure atheists believe in some things, or am I wrong about that?

Just because it's disbelief or the conviction there's no possibility a creator god exists doesn't mean they don't believe in other things, I think, things like loyalty or servitude.

Yeah but that wasn't the question. And your definition of atheism is wrong.

(March 14, 2019 at 3:12 am)IWNKYAAIMI Wrote:

(March 14, 2019 at 3:09 am)Catharsis Wrote: I'm sure atheists believe in some things, or am I wrong about that?

Just because it's disbelief or the conviction there's no possibility a creator god exists doesn't mean they don't believe in other things, I think, things like loyalty or servitude.

Yeah but that wasn't the question. And your definition of atheism is wrong.

Well, I'm not really an atheist, so I don't think it's up to me to answer that question.

What is the definition of atheism?

(March 14, 2019 at 3:09 am)Catharsis Wrote: I'm sure atheists believe in some things, or am I wrong about that?

Just because it's disbelief or the conviction there's no possibility a creator god exists doesn't mean they don't believe in other things, I think, things like loyalty or servitude.

Your response here is really interesting to me, because you're going by a different usage of "belief" than most people here. 

When you say you believe in loyalty (and I do too, by the way) I think you're not saying you agree with the intellectual proposition that loyalty exists. Instead, you're saying that you think it's a good thing. 

I would be making the same general kind of statement if I said, "I believe in equal rights for women." In fact, I think that equal rights for women don't exist now, but I say I believe in them because I want them to; I am committed to them. 

On web sites like this one, the definitions and usages are extremely narrow and strictly enforced. When people talk about belief in God, they mean consent to the intellectual proposition that God exists. In the same way that you can believe UFOs exist, or bigfoot. 

Does that make sense? That these are different kinds of belief? 

I suspect that when some Christians say they believe in their religion, they mean the commitment kind of belief, rather than the existence kind of belief. Or they may not be clear on the difference, but for them religion is about commitment first and foremost, and assent to a proposition is a follow-on. Working that out would require a certain amount of subtlety, and would require us to look past the constant unending discussion that normally occupies us.

And you'll find that people here are adamant about the fact that an atheist lacks a belief in God. That's the one and only definition that is acceptable here. The fact that any number of other beliefs lead to that conclusion, or cause the atheist to judge that (so-called) evidence for the existence of God is not good evidence, is dismissed as irrelevant. Atheism is lack and lack only, a pure and unsullied lack, virgin rising from the mire, and therefore requires no defense or justification.

(March 14, 2019 at 4:45 am)Belaqua Wrote:

(March 14, 2019 at 3:09 am)Catharsis Wrote: I'm sure atheists believe in some things, or am I wrong about that?

Just because it's disbelief or the conviction there's no possibility a creator god exists doesn't mean they don't believe in other things, I think, things like loyalty or servitude.

Your response here is really interesting to me, because you're going by a different usage of "belief" than most people here. 

When you say you believe in loyalty (and I do too, by the way) I think you're not saying you agree with the intellectual proposition that loyalty exists. Instead, you're saying that you think it's a good thing. 

I would be making the same general kind of statement if I said, "I believe in equal rights for women." In fact, I think that equal rights for women don't exist now, but I say I believe in them because I want them to; I am committed to them. 

On web sites like this one, the definitions and usages are extremely narrow and strictly enforced. When people talk about belief in God, they mean consent to the intellectual proposition that God exists. In the same way that you can believe UFOs exist, or bigfoot. 

Does that make sense? That these are different kinds of belief? 

I suspect that when some Christians say they believe in their religion, they mean the commitment kind of belief, rather than the existence kind of belief. Or they may not be clear on the difference, but for them religion is about commitment first and foremost, and assent to a proposition is a follow-on. Working that out would require a certain amount of subtlety, and would require us to look past the constant unending discussion that normally occupies us.

And you'll find that people here are adamant about the fact that an atheist lacks a belief in God. That's the one and only definition that is acceptable here. The fact that any number of other beliefs lead to that conclusion, or cause the atheist to judge that (so-called) evidence for the existence of God is not good evidence, is dismissed as irrelevant. Atheism is lack and lack only, a pure and unsullied lack, virgin rising from the mire, and therefore requires no defense or justification.

I could go a step further saying, is there really any other type of belief?

How is belief in something proven? Doesn't the mouth speak what the heart is full of?

(March 14, 2019 at 4:53 am)Catharsis Wrote: I could go a step further saying, is there really any other type of belief?

How is belief in something proven? Doesn't the mouth speak what the heart is full of?

Good point!

People here may want to separate belief and knowledge. Normally what they mean by this is that knowledge is something I hold to be true based on reasons I think are good ones, and belief is something someone else holds to be true based on reasons I think are bad ones. 

But I think you're closer to the real situation. Very few things are proven, what we hold to be true is based on any number of assumptions, prejudices, desires, and habits, and in the end the heart is boss. Even if our belief seems like assent to us, it's likely to be commitment.

I think Hume said something along these lines. The reason is servant of the passions, and that's how it should be. Or maybe just how it must be.

(March 14, 2019 at 5:16 am)Belaqua Wrote:

(March 14, 2019 at 4:53 am)Catharsis Wrote: I could go a step further saying, is there really any other type of belief?

How is belief in something proven? Doesn't the mouth speak what the heart is full of?

Good point!

People here may want to separate belief and knowledge. Normally what they mean by this is that knowledge is something I hold to be true based on reasons I think are good ones, and belief is something someone else holds to be true based on reasons I think are bad ones. 

But I think you're closer to the real situation. Very few things are proven, what we hold to be true is based on any number of assumptions, prejudices, desires, and habits, and in the end the heart is boss. Even if our belief seems like assent to us, it's likely to be commitment.

I think Hume said something along these lines. The reason is servant of the passions, and that's how it should be. Or maybe just how it must be.

I think belief is being made aware.

Perhaps that's why some don't have any.

(March 14, 2019 at 6:20 am)Catharsis Wrote: I think belief is being made aware.

Perhaps that's why some don't have any.

Sometimes it feels to me as if Plato's anamnesis explains my learning.

In fact I don't believe in remembering past lives. I see it more the way William Blake describes... There is so much that's true right in front of our faces, but we just don't see it properly. Our habits and closed-mindedness block us from getting it. It feels like remembering because the truth has been right there all along, and finally seeing feels like recognizing. 

So yeah... becoming aware is coming to believe.