(April 15, 2019 at 3:31 pm)Gae Bolga Wrote: No amount of handing out gifts and bribes will establish that god is an altruist.

what are you talking about?

(April 15, 2019 at 11:40 am)Drich Wrote:

(April 4, 2019 at 7:58 am)Rogue Wrote: That would make them potential children of God. Satan belongs to God too or you have two gods instead of One. Otherwise, where did Satan come from?

No I have never heard Christ speak. I have only read claims of claims of claims of claims of claims of claims of him making claims.

The best part of being an atheist is not believing in demons either.

Does God care for satan? In your understanding of the supposed bond between creating someone and loving them, is assigning someone to the biblically described Hell "caring or loving someone?" I and everyone else (besides you) on this planet and in heaven above, and in hell below would say no. Hell is not a place where God shows his love to those he casts into hell. Satan being chief among them..

Therefore there must be a disconnect between those in whom God loves, and in those in whom God hates. Altruism of God here is shown not in either of these two groups but for everyone else sitting on the fence in whom have not dedicated themselves to God. In that these people do not belong to God and yet God had extended the gift of salvation to them, and even before they become his, he promises to send the Holy Spirit to teach them. this gift of the SPirit is far better than any thing we have on this planet. it is the supreme gift. and it is accessed by you if you simply seek the truth. even if you don't the offer is there. Again altruism is not about you accepting the gift, but rather me offering it despite any connection to you. Again John 3:16 God so loved the world that to all he gives his only son. That is the gift given to all. now for those who take up this offer God gives more.. ever lasting life and direct relationship and communication through further spiritual fruits and gifts. However even if you do not accept, the offer remains. despite what you do with it.

Now, how does that hide of yours feel? firmly tanned? soundly trounced? well beaten? or do you want me togo further?

If you are feeling petulant or obtuse then know you have to first Show God loves all of his creation which according to your last argument includes satan, and everyone he places in Hell. I've shown a clear disconnect between the Hell bound an the followers of God, meaning even if technically God creates everyone it is clear he does not love everyone. (God created the devil, but did not create those in whom the devil spawns/ his seed his followers as pointed out by my last post) That is the hump you must over come if you want to try and stay on topic.

Or you could cop out and say I'm an atheist where your proof in all of this anyway..

It's a choose your own adventure thread which direction will you go?

---

and now....

Since God decides who goes to Hell, he owns you. That means God is not altruistic.

(April 16, 2019 at 6:47 am)Rogue Wrote:

(April 15, 2019 at 11:40 am)Drich Wrote: Does God care for satan? In your understanding of the supposed bond between creating someone and loving them, is assigning someone to the biblically described Hell "caring or loving someone?" I and everyone else (besides you) on this planet and in heaven above, and in hell below would say no. Hell is not a place where God shows his love to those he casts into hell. Satan being chief among them..

Therefore there must be a disconnect between those in whom God loves, and in those in whom God hates. Altruism of God here is shown not in either of these two groups but for everyone else sitting on the fence in whom have not dedicated themselves to God. In that these people do not belong to God and yet God had extended the gift of salvation to them, and even before they become his, he promises to send the Holy Spirit to teach them. this gift of the SPirit is far better than any thing we have on this planet. it is the supreme gift. and it is accessed by you if you simply seek the truth. even if you don't the offer is there. Again altruism is not about you accepting the gift, but rather me offering it despite any connection to you. Again John 3:16 God so loved the world that to all he gives his only son. That is the gift given to all. now for those who take up this offer God gives more.. ever lasting life and direct relationship and communication through further spiritual fruits and gifts. However even if you do not accept, the offer remains. despite what you do with it.

Now, how does that hide of yours feel? firmly tanned? soundly trounced? well beaten? or do you want me togo further?

If you are feeling petulant or obtuse then know you have to first Show God loves all of his creation which according to your last argument includes satan, and everyone he places in Hell. I've shown a clear disconnect between the Hell bound an the followers of God, meaning even if technically God creates everyone it is clear he does not love everyone. (God created the devil, but did not create those in whom the devil spawns/ his seed his followers as pointed out by my last post) That is the hump you must over come if you want to try and stay on topic.

Or you could cop out and say I'm an atheist where your proof in all of this anyway..

It's a choose your own adventure thread which direction will you go?

---

and now....

Since God decides who goes to Hell, he owns you. That means God is not altruistic.

Ah, abandoning the first argument i see.. remember you wanted my full attention now you have it and what do you do? you abandon ship and are trying to attack from a different position. what a intellectually dishonest thing you have done. can't even concede the previous argument before moving on to this one.

so how shall i defang you here with this statement?

how about the obvious truth.  God Invites the world to goto heaven. again truest form of altruism, to be given such an oppertunity having done nothing to earn such a gift, yet the opportunity is yours. Now who goes to heaven/moves on to his perfect creation accept his invitation. In a similar manor when we do not choose to go to heaven You/we elect Hell. God simply holds us to our choice.

Why because not everyone wants to go to heaven, and God will certainly not drag you into his court kicking and screaming. Some truly feel it is better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven. God is allowing your kingdom in hell if you prefer it.

Therefore God is altruistic. Giving you a gift you can not earn allowing those who would except it the keys to creation and eternity future, and those who do not want any part of it, the space and separation from God and creation they want to have.

what else you got?

             how will you shift the goal posts this time?

Nothing to do with altruism, let alone it's "truest form".

Quote:how about the obvious truth.  God Invites the world to goto heaven. again truest form of altruism, to be given such an oppertunity having done nothing to earn such a gift, yet the opportunity is yours. Now who goes to heaven/moves on to his perfect creation accept his invitation. In a similar manor when we do not choose to go to heaven You/we elect Hell. God simply holds us to our choice.

Proceeding on the premise that Heaven is better than Hell, then - if God were truly altruistic - EVERYONE would go to Heaven, regardless of their choices.  God makes getting to Heaven conditional, which is not altruism.

Boru

edit:  Come to think of it, if God created everything, then he created the choices we make AND the consequences of those choices.  Thus (coupled with omniscience), God has always known who is and is not going to Hell.  The unavoidable conclusion is that God continuously creates people knowing full well that some of them are going to suffer eternally.

What a guy.

(April 16, 2019 at 1:17 pm)Drich Wrote:

(April 16, 2019 at 6:47 am)Rogue Wrote: Since God decides who goes to Hell, he owns you. That means God is not altruistic.

Ah, abandoning the first argument i see.. remember you wanted my full attention now you have it and what do you do? you abandon ship and are trying to attack from a different position. what a intellectually dishonest thing you have done. can't even concede the previous argument before moving on to this one.

so how shall i defang you here with this statement?

how about the obvious truth.  God Invites the world to goto heaven. again truest form of altruism, to be given such an oppertunity having done nothing to earn such a gift, yet the opportunity is yours. Now who goes to heaven/moves on to his perfect creation accept his invitation. In a similar manor when we do not choose to go to heaven You/we elect Hell. God simply holds us to our choice.

Why because not everyone wants to go to heaven, and God will certainly not drag you into his court kicking and screaming. Some truly feel it is better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven. God is allowing your kingdom in hell if you prefer it.

Therefore God is altruistic. Giving you a gift you can not earn allowing those who would except it the keys to creation and eternity future, and those who do not want any part of it, the space and separation from God and creation they want to have.

what else you got?

             how will you shift the goal posts this time?

If you are going to attack me, the least you can do is name the first argument. I am certain it was like this:

P1- God owns everything
P2- You cannot be altruistic when you do something for your own (i.e. mow your lawn, take care of your kids, etc.)
P3- God owns everything
C1- God cannot be altruistic.

You can find it here: https://atheistforums.org/thread-58633-p...pid1897151 It simply says this: "Since God decides who goes to Hell, he owns you. That means God is not altruistic."   

My argument has not changed. I can now see you do not debate with integrity. Maybe you should pray for some and see how that goes.

Parents say clean your room or be grounded. If the child chooses not to clean their room, it does not change who the parents are. It makes the parents mad, so they punish you. The parents can kick the kid out, punish them in all kinds of ways, but they are STILL THE PARENTS.

(April 17, 2019 at 7:02 am)Rogue Wrote: P1- God owns everything

I haven't read the exchange so far, but I can try out some responses based on what I've read of Christian theology. Please note that I'm not saying things I hold to be true -- just arguments I know from reading Dante and other books. 

So I think they would say that the verb "owns" is misleading. The God of Dante doesn't own anything in the way that people own cars or pets. God emanates everything. God holds everything in being. Without God everything would disappear. So I don't think that "own" describes the relationship quite accurately.

Quote:P2- You cannot be altruistic when you do something for your own (i.e. mow your lawn, take care of your kids, etc.)

It's a fundamental belief that God lacks nothing, needs nothing, and wants nothing. So it's true that God can't do anything to help himself. The idea of Dante and many other Christians is that God just is the Good -- pretty much in the way that Plato's God is the Form of the Good. And because it is the nature of the Good to spread itself (a selfish Good wouldn't be good) God doesn't spread good because he wants to help, but because it is simply his nature. So "altruistic" is a misleading anthropomorphism, I think.  

Quote:Since God decides who goes to Hell, he owns you.

Again, the more theological way of saying this is that people decide where they go. Not, of course, by choosing that they want to go to Hell, but by choosing their actions. If God is the Good, and people spend their lives heading away from the Good, then their lives have pointed them in the other direction. It isn't as if God has evaluated the evidence and made up his mind about something. That, again, is an anthropomorphism. 

Now I know that more literalist, child-level Christianity doesn't describe things this way. There is a lot of "in a manner of speaking" going on. But what I've described here is what more educated Christians have believed for a very long time. 

There are, of course, differences among less mainstream Christians, some of whom are very interesting. For example, Jacob Boehme didn't think that God is impassible and unchanging. He thought that God develops through dialectic, entirely through the agency of people. Hegel stole the idea from him, about Geist moving through history. 

Anyway, as I say, I'm not arguing that any of this is true. Just that there are better responses than maybe you've gotten here so far.

It's not impossible for a person to imagine an altruistic god, this thread is only concerned with drich's god, the character of magic book.

(April 17, 2019 at 9:01 am)Belaqua Wrote:

(April 17, 2019 at 7:02 am)Rogue Wrote: P1- God owns everything

I haven't read the exchange so far, but I can try out some responses based on what I've read of Christian theology. Please note that I'm not saying things I hold to be true -- just arguments I know from reading Dante and other books. 

So I think they would say that the verb "owns" is misleading. The God of Dante doesn't own anything in the way that people own cars or pets. God emanates everything. God holds everything in being. Without God everything would disappear. So I don't think that "own" describes the relationship quite accurately.

Quote:P2- You cannot be altruistic when you do something for your own (i.e. mow your lawn, take care of your kids, etc.)

It's a fundamental belief that God lacks nothing, needs nothing, and wants nothing. So it's true that God can't do anything to help himself. The idea of Dante and many other Christians is that God just is the Good -- pretty much in the way that Plato's God is the Form of the Good. And because it is the nature of the Good to spread itself (a selfish Good wouldn't be good) God doesn't spread good because he wants to help, but because it is simply his nature. So "altruistic" is a misleading anthropomorphism, I think.  

Quote:Since God decides who goes to Hell, he owns you.

Again, the more theological way of saying this is that people decide where they go. Not, of course, by choosing that they want to go to Hell, but by choosing their actions. If God is the Good, and people spend their lives heading away from the Good, then their lives have pointed them in the other direction. It isn't as if God has evaluated the evidence and made up his mind about something. That, again, is an anthropomorphism. 

Now I know that more literalist, child-level Christianity doesn't describe things this way. There is a lot of "in a manner of speaking" going on. But what I've described here is what more educated Christians have believed for a very long time. 

There are, of course, differences among less mainstream Christians, some of whom are very interesting. For example, Jacob Boehme didn't think that God is impassible and unchanging. He thought that God develops through dialectic, entirely through the agency of people. Hegel stole the idea from him, about Geist moving through history. 

Anyway, as I say, I'm not arguing that any of this is true. Just that there are better responses than maybe you've gotten here so far.

That was a "good" response. My bowel movement was "good". Did I meet God? The dead pig I ate for dinner was "good". Did I eat God?

Is this not a category failure? Good is a word that describes many things. Good does not have agency. God lacks 1 "o" Go_d.

That is the lowest superlative good, better, best.

If I say that was good, should I capitalize? Is it taking the Lord's name in vain?

Why did Satan have to ask God's permission to torture Job?