(July 31, 2019 at 8:27 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:

(July 31, 2019 at 7:22 am)Brian37 Wrote: Evolution in all life works better with diversity. And chemically speaking genetically related family actually produce pheromones that are a chemical scent mammals give off noting relationships. And just like other mammals, like elephants and lions, they too seek outside the family. Incest while not physically impossible is not advantageous to spreading genes.

There are even with adults moral and ethical reasons outside evolution we tend to avoid it. But old books of mythology do nothing at all to explain human behavior. Trying to explain human behavior with an old book of mythology, is like trying to explain astrophysics with astrology.

Evolutionary biology, human psychology are better ways of saying why most humans avoid incest.

The evolution argument is largely beside the point, as the issue is incest, not procreation.

The 'old book of mythology' argument is simply wrong, as most mythologies take a pretty relaxed view of incest.

Boru

No, that is the point.

The old mythologies ARE relaxed, no kidding. My point is it still doesn't matter. Old books of mythology do not explain in any modern scientific manor why humans behave the way they do.

The bible has stories of daughters fucking their dad. Ancient Egyptians also fucked within the family to keep the bloodline pure.  Caligula was fascinated with them, and even fucked his own sister. 

None of that regardless is a modern understanding of human behavior. They are still the bad guesses humans made because they did not have the benefit of modern science.

Even on other topics, superstitions existed worldwide in antiquity. Even with no connection humans made similar bad guesses to things as to what seeing comets meant. 

I am not limiting my criticism to just the bible. Nobody worldwide back then, had any modern knowledge as to what we know now. So it would not matter to me if that mythology was for or against anything. It is still a superstitious gap answer.

(July 31, 2019 at 8:46 am)Brian37 Wrote:

(July 31, 2019 at 8:27 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: The evolution argument is largely beside the point, as the issue is incest, not procreation.

The 'old book of mythology' argument is simply wrong, as most mythologies take a pretty relaxed view of incest.

Boru

No, that is the point.

The old mythologies ARE relaxed, no kidding. My point is it still doesn't matter. Old books of mythology do not explain in any modern scientific manor why humans behave the way they do.

The bible has stories of daughters fucking their dad. Ancient Egyptians also fucked within the family to keep the bloodline pure.  Caligula was fascinated with them, and even fucked his own sister. 

None of that regardless is a modern understanding of human behavior. They are still the bad guesses humans made because they did not have the benefit of modern science.

Even on other topics, superstitions existed worldwide in antiquity. Even with no connection humans made similar bad guesses to things as to what seeing comets meant. 

I am not limiting my criticism to just the bible. Nobody worldwide back then, had any modern knowledge as to what we know now. So it would not matter to me if that mythology was for or against anything. It is still a superstitious gap answer.

But I can't think of any mythologies which tried to explain incest.  Isn't it rather unfair to fault them for failing to do something they never attempted?  Sort of like complaining that a billiards player is a failure at darts because he never attempted to play darts.

Boru

(July 31, 2019 at 4:27 am)Rein83 Wrote: Because the argument is the same. Love is love. Sure ban pedophilia since kids cant consent. But 18 year old adults can go wild.

I mean sure you may argue genetic problems during birth, but just use condoms and you'll be fine. I mean anal sex has highest risk of AIDS. So there is that.

I think main reason why people are against incest is homosexual males have more chance of dying due to aids. Nobody likes males not even themselves. While promoting incest helps nobody, i just think its promoted because they feel it helps society that way.
https://www.cdc.gov/hiv/risk/analsex.html

Though its also funny that being against gays means they commit suicide.. which i guess you can argue for. What about people who do incest? What if they do that. Then what : )

Obvious troll is trolling, obviously.

Wow. I'm starting to wonder if I should just assume every new user here is a sock of this guy. I mean, that's a stupid way to go about interacting with people, but it seems like (if I made that my mode of communication) I'd be right most of the time.

(July 31, 2019 at 8:41 am)notimportant1234 Wrote:

(July 31, 2019 at 7:22 am)Brian37 Wrote: Evolution in all life works better with diversity. And chemically speaking genetically related family actually produce pheromones that are a chemical scent mammals give off noting relationships. And just like other mammals, like elephants and lions, they too seek outside the family. Incest while not physically impossible is not advantageous to spreading genes.

There are even with adults moral and ethical reasons outside evolution we tend to avoid it. But old books of mythology do nothing at all to explain human behavior. Trying to explain human behavior with an old book of mythology, is like trying to explain astrophysics with astrology.

Evolutionary biology, human psychology are better ways of saying why most humans avoid incest.

Can you extend on this? Given that you have two related adults, engaged in consensual intimacy, with no desire to procreate.

Not arguing the existence of incest. It happens. All I was arguing is a general scientific fact that most of the time our species avoids it. 

I would say also that even if it is claimed to be consensual, it is far more likely that one or both of the adults were products of child molestation even if they consent as adults.

Like I said, even with other mammals, evolution did not evolve to favor incest. "Consent" is most certainly an adult issue. But even then, that does not mean those consenting adults are basing their relationship on anything mentally healthy.

Mammals including humans, literally give off chemical smells to denote the difference between family and non family. 

While it is not impossible for two adults not abused to have sex within the family, it is far more likely that even between consenting adults, that incest is a product of abuse by a parent or someone the victim is familiar with when they were younger.

(July 31, 2019 at 12:04 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote: Wow. I'm starting to wonder if I should just assume every new user here is a sock of this guy. I mean, that's a stupid way to go about interacting with people, but it seems like (if I made that my mode of communication) I'd be right most of the time.

It’s a different guy. For once. I’m sure Emil will be back though.

I know of an example of a brother and sister that were not raised together (adopted to separate families) and met when they were in their 30's. Neither were in other relationship at the time. He had a vasectomy.

There was a lot of attraction and they had sex.

My view? I see nothing wrong with this: no power struggle, no coercion, no risk of malformed children.

Now, as an example of incest, this is a rather rare case, but *morally* I see nothing wrong here.

(July 31, 2019 at 12:28 pm)polymath257 Wrote: I know of an example of a brother and sister that were not raised together (adopted to separate families) and met when they were in their 30's. Neither were in other relationship at the time. He had a vasectomy.

There was a lot of attraction and they had sex.

My view? I see nothing wrong with this: no power struggle, no coercion, no risk of malformed children.

Now, as an example of incest, this is a rather rare case, but *morally* I see nothing wrong here.

Not the point.

"Consent" is not the problem.

I am talking about odds of why incest happen. Not that it happens. The odds when incest happen, even between adults, is most likely a result of abuse of either or both when they are younger.

You are speaking of two people who could not have known. I am talking about the larger probability that they do know, and one or the other groom the other to repeat the abuse that happened to them when they were younger.

The ancient Egyptians saw family fucking as a way to protect the bloodline. But back then, the mortality rate was far higher and both boys and girls were expected to reproduce faster and quicker at a young age. 

Evolution and human psychology today, are better ways to explain why humans do what they do, good or bad.

I am saying even today, if a mother and son, father and daughter, brother and sister are having sex, EVEN AS ADULTS, the most likely reason TODAY is because abuse happened somewhere in their past prior to having adult critical thinking skills.

(July 31, 2019 at 4:27 am)Rein83 Wrote: Because the argument is the same. Love is love. Sure ban pedophilia since kids cant consent. But 18 year old adults can go wild.

I mean sure you may argue genetic problems during birth, but just use condoms and you'll be fine. I mean anal sex has highest risk of AIDS. So there is that.

I think main reason why people are against incest is homosexual males have more chance of dying due to aids. Nobody likes males not even themselves. While promoting incest helps nobody, i just think its promoted because they feel it helps society that way.
https://www.cdc.gov/hiv/risk/analsex.html

Though its also funny that being against gays means they commit suicide.. which i guess you can argue for. What about people who do incest? What if they do that. Then what : )

Rein.

Just because that’s how you swing in rural Alabama, and brother-daddy says it’s okay when he’s “tucking you in” doesn’t mean most of the rest of the world wants to go there.

Apart from Tasmania, of course...

(July 31, 2019 at 4:39 am)notimportant1234 Wrote: I don't think incest is illegal...

I'm not assuming your location, but in all 50 States plus DC there is some prohibition against incest on the books. It varies from state to state, some have a very narrow and specific definition of incest (parent/child or siblings only), in others it's more broad (same as before but includes grandparent/grandchild and uncles, aunts, nieces, and nephews). In some states the punishment might be small, maybe 5 years probation and a fine. In others it's more harsh, with one giving 40 to life.