(August 18, 2019 at 8:19 pm)Grandizer Wrote: Ok, so this is specifically about what atheists say, not "over the top" remarks in general.

I see what you mean. 

I think we would benefit from speaking in a reasonable way, even though we are atheists. There's this old fashioned idea that it's good to be accurate, fair, careful in our speech, etc.

(August 18, 2019 at 8:00 pm)Belaqua Wrote:

(August 18, 2019 at 7:51 pm)wyzas Wrote: Most of the time they do. 

How do you measure this? How do you demonstrate that it's true?

"Religion and theists" is a very broad category. Are you including Jains? Pure Land Buddhists? They're not theists exactly, but they are often religious. 

Or are you only talking about people near you?

I said "not where I live". You deleted that part. Stop being a dick. I don't have to demonstrate shit to you.

(August 18, 2019 at 9:48 pm)wyzas Wrote:

(August 18, 2019 at 8:00 pm)Belaqua Wrote: How do you measure this? How do you demonstrate that it's true?

"Religion and theists" is a very broad category. Are you including Jains? Pure Land Buddhists? They're not theists exactly, but they are often religious. 

Or are you only talking about people near you?

I said "not where I live". You deleted that part. Stop being a dick. I don't have to demonstrate shit to you.

You said that religious people where you live don't call out other religious people. 

You didn't specify whether or not you were only referring to local people when you said that "religion and theists" demonstrate bigotry.

And yes, you don't have to demonstrate anything you've said to be true. Sometimes people say that the one making the assertion bears the burden of proof, but I understand that doesn't always apply. 

We really could discuss this in a calm way. I'm not trying to trick you or insult you.

(August 18, 2019 at 10:03 pm)Belaqua Wrote:

(August 18, 2019 at 9:48 pm)wyzas Wrote: I said "not where I live". You deleted that part. Stop being a dick. I don't have to demonstrate shit to you.

You said that religious people where you live don't call out other religious people. 

You didn't specify whether or not you were only referring to local people when you said that "religion and theists" demonstrate bigotry.

And yes, you don't have to demonstrate anything you've said to be true. Sometimes people say that the one making the assertion bears the burden of proof, but I understand that doesn't always apply. 

We really could discuss this in a calm way. I'm not trying to trick you or insult you.

And yet, you are.

(August 16, 2019 at 8:23 pm)wyzas Wrote: Really,.......... Isaac Newton. Would you like to go back a bit farther into history to prop up your position? But then, his religious ideas are not exactly why most people consider him memorable to society.  

I think the issue for me is that if religion/philosophy is all that the individual has to contribute to society (especially if the person only regurgitates and is pompous about it) then I won't have much of an opinion about the individual.

Plus, only for he was a genius his religious views would likely have seen him executed in his day.

(August 18, 2019 at 8:24 pm)Belaqua Wrote:

(August 18, 2019 at 8:19 pm)Grandizer Wrote: Ok, so this is specifically about what atheists say, not "over the top" remarks in general.

I see what you mean. 

I think we would benefit from speaking in a reasonable way, even though we are atheists. There's this old fashioned idea that it's good to be accurate, fair, careful in our speech, etc.

Well, there's also this idea that it's ok to be human, make mistakes, be frustrated (to a certain extent), and just show a bit more freedom in our thinking. What you say makes a lot of sense in academic circles, but not all of us here are interested in being overly accurate and fair.
because not all of us come here out of a strictly academic motivation to think through every aspect of things carefully and fairly.

Me personally, I'm here to be as fair as possible in my discourses with theists, but simultaneously I'm not here to pounce on every atheist in an atheist forum every time they make a statement that seems mildly unfair.

If it's damaging, really unfair, or clearly wrong statement that they're making, sure. I've had the urge to correct people (whether here or elsewhere) when they make statements such as Jesus was copied from prior pagan myths, or when some insinuate that all Muslims are bad people. And if someone were to say all Catholics are child molesters, I'd call them out as well.

I also always keep in mind that, globally, theism lends a lot of privilege to people, and especially Christian theism. And when in a world that is generally very encouraging of theistic belief (specifically Christian belief) and that enables discrimination against atheists (so that often times atheists have to be careful not to disclose their atheism in various situations such as at work or in politics or among family, etc.), when an atheist comes to an atheist forum, often times they're here to chill or to vent or to just express more freedom and to feel more of the "faith"-linked privilege they don't feel in the real world. Not all of us are here for the debates.

Going back to that original remark in the OP, it's not nice to say, but it's not even much of a big deal, since I can't think of any situation in which people are informed by their religious views anyway (so in agreement with Shell here). Religious views don't inform, they just guide. A theist scientist doesn't discover gravity or the big bang because of their faith in God.

Oh, I already forgot the wording of the OP quote, lol. But I do recall you, Belaqua, arguing for the fact that religious views inform people with regards to scientific discoveries and such. So I was remarking on that instead.

(August 19, 2019 at 8:04 pm)Grandizer Wrote: not all of us here are interested in being overly accurate and fair.

You can say that again. 

Quote:I'm not here to pounce on every atheist in an atheist forum every time they make a statement that seems mildly unfair.

Nor am I. Most of the unfair statements are so familiar that everybody lets them go. That's why I wanted to focus on statements that are just ridiculously over the top. 

You can be damn sure, though, that any unfair statement made by a Christian on this forum will be more than a little pounced on. There is a double standard. Atheists are held to a far lower standard.

Quote:when an atheist comes to an atheist forum, often times they're here to chill or to vent or to just express more freedom and to feel more of the "faith"-linked privilege they don't feel in the real world. Not all of us are here for the debates.

And that's fine. No one wants to curtail the fun of chatting with your friends or telling jokes. Even if that includes things like "Jeez I hate Christians" that's par for the course. 

Quote:Going back to that original remark in the OP, it's not nice to say, but it's not even much of a big deal, since I can't think of any situation in which people are informed by their religious views anyway (so in agreement with Shell here). Religious views don't inform, they just guide. A theist scientist doesn't discover gravity or the big bang because of their faith in God.

Oh, I already forgot the wording of the OP quote, lol. But I do recall you, Belaqua, arguing for the fact that religious views inform people with regards to scientific discoveries and such. So I was remarking on that instead.

Well, the wording of the quote is so bad that the meaning isn't clear. I specified what I think it is supposed to mean. It is clear English for me to say "my national origins inform who I am," for example. If one self-identifies as being a Catholic or an atheist, those things can also "inform who you are." 

Quote:inform

give an essential or formative principle or quality to.
"religion informs every aspect of their lives"
synonyms:
suffuse, pervade, permeate, infuse, imbue, saturate; More

Am I really not allowed to say that the quote in the OP is ridiculous? The forum is designated only for agreement among atheists?

I guess when the whole New Atheism thing got rolling, and people were more comfortable coming out of the closet, there was some indication that atheists were supposed to be thinking people. People who value facts and reason. If there is some benefit in being an atheist, as opposed to being a creationist, it's because we are more careful to justify what we hold to be true about the world. 

But I am learning that such justification is neither necessary nor desirable, for a lot of atheists. Wyzas, for example, is more than willing to make strong negative judgments about billions of people in the world without feeling the need to provide facts or arguments at all. 

If being an atheist is just about preferring a different set of unthinking unproven beliefs, I don't see why anybody would be pleased to identify that way. 

OK -- I have learned my lesson.

(August 20, 2019 at 1:14 am)Belaqua Wrote:

(August 19, 2019 at 8:04 pm)Grandizer Wrote: not all of us here are interested in being overly accurate and fair.

You can say that again. 

Quote:I'm not here to pounce on every atheist in an atheist forum every time they make a statement that seems mildly unfair.

Nor am I. Most of the unfair statements are so familiar that everybody lets them go. That's why I wanted to focus on statements that are just ridiculously over the top. 

You can be damn sure, though, that any unfair statement made by a Christian on this forum will be more than a little pounced on. There is a double standard. Atheists are held to a far lower standard.

Quote:when an atheist comes to an atheist forum, often times they're here to chill or to vent or to just express more freedom and to feel more of the "faith"-linked privilege they don't feel in the real world. Not all of us are here for the debates.

And that's fine. No one wants to curtail the fun of chatting with your friends or telling jokes. Even if that includes things like "Jeez I hate Christians" that's par for the course. 

Quote:Going back to that original remark in the OP, it's not nice to say, but it's not even much of a big deal, since I can't think of any situation in which people are informed by their religious views anyway (so in agreement with Shell here). Religious views don't inform, they just guide. A theist scientist doesn't discover gravity or the big bang because of their faith in God.

Oh, I already forgot the wording of the OP quote, lol. But I do recall you, Belaqua, arguing for the fact that religious views inform people with regards to scientific discoveries and such. So I was remarking on that instead.

Well, the wording of the quote is so bad that the meaning isn't clear. I specified what I think it is supposed to mean. It is clear English for me to say "my national origins inform who I am," for example. If one self-identifies as being a Catholic or an atheist, those things can also "inform who you are." 

Quote:inform

give an essential or formative principle or quality to.
"religion informs every aspect of their lives"
synonyms:
suffuse, pervade, permeate, infuse, imbue, saturate; More

Am I really not allowed to say that the quote in the OP is ridiculous? The forum is designated only for agreement among atheists?

I guess when the whole New Atheism thing got rolling, and people were more comfortable coming out of the closet, there was some indication that atheists were supposed to be thinking people. People who value facts and reason. If there is some benefit in being an atheist, as opposed to being a creationist, it's because we are more careful to justify what we hold to be true about the world. 

But I am learning that such justification is neither necessary nor desirable, for a lot of atheists. Wyzas, for example, is more than willing to make strong negative judgments about billions of people in the world without feeling the need to provide facts or arguments at all. 

If being an atheist is just about preferring a different set of unthinking unproven beliefs, I don't see why anybody would be pleased to identify that way. 

OK -- I have learned my lesson.

I don't owe you a god damn fact or argument to justify what I experience in my personal life with the religious or what I say about the religious here. What you receive in this forum is what I receive IRL on a regular basis. But you seem to be to dense or to wrapped up in yourself to understand that. 

I doubt it. 

Piss off.

The sum total of my father is his religion. It's all that matters to him (including religious conspiracy theories and looking forward to the end times), it's almost all he talks about. It's not all there is to him, but he has marginalized every other aspect of his history, life, and personality. I do wish there was more to him. In order to stand visiting him I have to bring religious-oriented movies to keep him from working on converting me long enough to make the visit bearable.

He's a long way past 'religion is important in his life'.

---

(August 20, 2019 at 1:14 am)Belaqua Wrote: Am I really not allowed to say that the quote in the OP is ridiculous? The forum is designated only for agreement among atheists?

I guess when the whole New Atheism thing got rolling, and people were more comfortable coming out of the closet, there was some indication that atheists were supposed to be thinking people. People who value facts and reason. If there is some benefit in being an atheist, as opposed to being a creationist, it's because we are more careful to justify what we hold to be true about the world.

But I am learning that such justification is neither necessary nor desirable, for a lot of atheists. Wyzas, for example, is more than willing to make strong negative judgments about billions of people in the world without feeling the need to provide facts or arguments at all.

If being an atheist is just about preferring a different set of unthinking unproven beliefs, I don't see why anybody would be pleased to identify that way.

OK -- I have learned my lesson.

Yes, people are really allowed to say things you wouldn't say here, and you really aren't immune to disagreement with your opinion on that, and disagreeing with what you say is not the same thing as not being allowed to say it. Drama much?

I strongly doubt you actually learned anything except perhaps improving your technique with your broad brush.

(August 20, 2019 at 9:59 am)Mister Agenda Wrote: The sum total of my father is his religion. It's all that matters to him (including religious conspiracy theories and looking forward to the end times), it's almost all he talks about. It's not all there is to him, but he has marginalized every other aspect of his history, life, and personality. I do wish there was more to him. In order to stand visiting him I have to bring religious-oriented movies to keep him from working on converting me long enough to make the visit bearable.

He's a long way past 'religion is important in his life'.

I wouldn't be happy if my father were this way. I'm sorry his obsession makes it difficult for you to be close with him.
It's sad when people go over the top in any direction. There are people who use their beliefs to be better, and people who use them to be worse. 

Quote:Yes, people are really allowed to say things you wouldn't say here, and you really aren't immune to disagreement with your opinion on that, and disagreeing with what you say is not the same thing as not being allowed to say it. Drama much?

I strongly doubt you actually learned anything except perhaps improving your technique with your broad brush.

 

Of course I know that according to the rules I'm allowed to point it out when atheists say ridiculous things. There is no threat of being banned. 

It's the response from other posters that has been of interest to me. People are generally uninterested in holding other atheists to any kind of standard of truth or reasonableness. 

Have I used a broad brush? I said that some of the atheists here say things that are over the top. This is less broad-brushy than what Wyzas said, about billions of people living and dead, and which he has no interest in backing up with facts or logic. Such statements are very broad brush, fairly common, and almost never argued against.