(November 11, 2019 at 1:27 pm)Grandizer Wrote:

(November 11, 2019 at 1:16 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: Should you also self-censor when doing a public reading of, say, Huckleberry Finn or To Kill A Mockingbird?  The argument can be made that by saying (or singing) the words as the artist wrote them is a nod to artistic integrity.  I don't consider myself qualified to re-write Twain or Drake or Snoop Dog.

It's all situational and a matter of tact. It's about knowing what and when to say things (if at all). Will you die if you don't sing the N-word out loud in front of black people?

No, but I also won't die if I don't have cream on my oatmeal.  It isn't about what's fatal and what isn't, it's about claiming ownership of a word.

To be clear, I don't approve of the n-word, due to its history and connotations (as has been mentioned before).  I think it's a vile, despicable word.  I can completely understand why people shouldn't use it.  I don't understand why people shouldn't say it when they're quoting someone else.  Drake uses the word in a song and no one bats an eye.  But if I say that word while singing along to the song, I'm a racist. It isn't as if I'm using that word about someone or directed that word to someone.

Boru

Heh.  I just flashed on last year's 'Baby, It's Cold Outside' debate.

(November 11, 2019 at 1:27 pm)Grandizer Wrote:

(November 11, 2019 at 1:16 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: Should you also self-censor when doing a public reading of, say, Huckleberry Finn or To Kill A Mockingbird?  The argument can be made that by saying (or singing) the words as the artist wrote them is a nod to artistic integrity.  I don't consider myself qualified to re-write Twain or Drake or Snoop Dog.

It's all situational and a matter of tact. It's about knowing what and when to say things (if at all). Will you die if you don't sing the N-word out loud in front of black people?

So, what is the situational difference between using the word while doing a public reading of a work where the N-word is used as a weapon and singing along to a song that uses it more casually and not as a weapon? It's the blatant double standard at play that vexes a lot of us, and the fact that a group that's historically been oppressed benefiting for once doesn't quite ease our minds.

(November 11, 2019 at 1:39 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:

(November 11, 2019 at 1:27 pm)Grandizer Wrote: It's all situational and a matter of tact. It's about knowing what and when to say things (if at all). Will you die if you don't sing the N-word out loud in front of black people?

No, but I also won't die if I don't have cream on my oatmeal.  It isn't about what's fatal and what isn't, it's about claiming ownership of a word.

To be clear, I don't approve of the n-word, due to its history and connotations (as has been mentioned before).  I think it's a vile, despicable word.  I can completely understand why people shouldn't use it.  I don't understand why people shouldn't say it when they're quoting someone else.  Drake uses the word in a song and no one bats an eye.  But if I say that word while singing along to the song, I'm a racist. It isn't as if I'm using that word about someone or directed that word to someone.

Boru

Heh.  I just flashed on last year's 'Baby, It's Cold Outside' debate.

I get that, but if the black community in general [in America at least] have made it very clear that you shouldn't say that word at all, not even in songs, knowing the history behind that word and knowing that it isn't just a slur but a traumatic reminder to black people of the slavery of their past along with the institutionalized racism and the the white privilege that continues to hold to this day, why would someone who understands this still use the word in any context (even if not directed at someone)?

Hell, some black people don't even like it when other black people use it.

https://www.dukechronicle.com/article/20...d-in-music

Article above authored by a black woman.

And if those black people who knew the word and repudiate its use were the only ones complaining, that wouldn’t be an issue. When you create a double standard, it’s just kind of fucked up, and therein lies the debate.

(November 11, 2019 at 1:51 pm)Rev. Rye Wrote:

(November 11, 2019 at 1:27 pm)Grandizer Wrote: It's all situational and a matter of tact. It's about knowing what and when to say things (if at all). Will you die if you don't sing the N-word out loud in front of black people?

So, what is the situational difference between using the word while doing a public reading of a work where the N-word is used as a weapon and singing along to a song that uses it more casually and not as a weapon? It's the blatant double standard at play that vexes a lot of us, and the fact that a group that's historically been oppressed benefiting for once doesn't quite ease our minds.

Maybe there isn't. Maybe the best thing to do is not just say it at all. I see that for some of us, this feels like an inconvenience, but I still think we'll be fine without feeling like we have to fight for our right to say it.

(November 11, 2019 at 11:34 am)Fierce Wrote:

(November 11, 2019 at 11:25 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: A stupid tempest in an even stupider teapot.  The notion that you can't include an offensive word while singing along to a song that someone else wrote is idiotic on the face of it.

If white people saying the n-word in this circumstance is offending black people, then maybe black people should stop including that word in their songs.

Fuxxake.

Boru

Precisely.

Took more than ten non-related responses before someone on another forum came to the same logical conclusion.

---

Thank you, Min.

This video pretty much sums it up.

"Not really".

But again, based on the OP I think the point of the script was missed.

Cris is saying what I am, you have to know your audience, especially with that word. What I got out of the OP's  description of the scene wasn't Chris's version, but the white character not knowing his audience.

We(meaning me being white) really cant use it whenever or wherever. Nor should we as white people. 

It still amounts to "not really" as Chris said.

And if you make an argument like in the OP, you may not be a bigot, sure, but it is still missing the point to me which can lead blacks to accuse you of racism.

I'd take Chris's advice and get to know people as individuals and not use the ("if they(blacks) do it, why can't I?)

It still is a word with a very long history that started in a very oppressive age. And that is why it is really important to know your audience as a white person.

Like Chris said, "Not really."

Sorry, but I will sing all the words to any song I like. I would never use it as a slur, but I draw the line at being told I can't repeat what other people have said as quoted or else I'm racist. You can fuck right off with that.

Words. They have tremendous power these days. More than guns, knives or wips. Like I said, real racists will not use those words, they will probably use incidents like this to push their rethoric, in a tame way.

(November 11, 2019 at 2:33 pm)Shell B Wrote: Sorry, but I will sing all the words to any song I like. I would never use it as a slur, but I draw the line at being told I can't repeat what other people have said as quoted or else I'm racist. You can fuck right off with that.

Precisely this.

I hate the word, and I hate rap “music”, but if they’re lyrics to a song I like and I sing along (badly) I will stick to the lyrics.

(November 11, 2019 at 1:51 pm)Rev. Rye Wrote:

(November 11, 2019 at 1:27 pm)Grandizer Wrote: It's all situational and a matter of tact. It's about knowing what and when to say things (if at all). Will you die if you don't sing the N-word out loud in front of black people?

So, what is the situational difference between using the word while doing a public reading of a work where the N-word is used as a weapon and singing along to a song that uses it more casually and not as a weapon? It's the blatant double standard at play that vexes a lot of us, and the fact that a group that's historically been oppressed benefiting for once doesn't quite ease our minds.

If you are talking quoting a history book or documentary then nobody should have a problem if it is merely reporting history saying "this happened and people used this word". But a song isn't a history report, it is entertainment, so again, time place and context matter and knowing your audience matters. You cant simply say "whenever, wherever."

As an atheist, I can handle other atheists joking with me claiming I love Stalin and barbecue kittens. But when a fundy falsely accuses me, because I am an an atheist, I must love dictators, and they hate me, that is done out of fear and bigotry.

But even with liberal theists who don't hate me, but still don't completely understand, even they can say things that are ignorant without realizing it. 

It is even the same with "Rednecks". HillbillyAtheist a member here, my best friend from  Oklahoma, and a liberal, he can handle me joking with him and calling him a "redneck". But he hates it when he sees coastals basically say, "fuck the middle of the country, fuck those trailer trash rednecks."

So I get it when you hear a country artist use the word "redneck" in a song, and also get it when John(Hillbilly Atheist) gets angry at others whom use it in a derogatory context.

There are tons of pejoratives for all sorts of minorities, Mexicans, Jews, Chinese, Polish, Italians. So if you are going to use a word not being part of that group, and you are not a bigot, you should know the history behind that word, and also know your audience and not use it indiscriminately.