You are reading translations of the Qur'an people. The literary challenge concerns the original text and unless you learn Arabic there is absolutely no way - nor any right - for you to make judgments.

Orientalist (non Muslim) literature is a good starting point to have an informed opinion about the Qur'an literary content.

Let's pick a random quote : Fitzgerald Arbuthnot - eminent orientalist - says "...and though several attempts have been made to produce a work equal to it as far elegant writing is concerned, none has succeeded". Put that against random guy who has a translation of the Koran on his shelf, read about it a couple of times then decided it was poorly worded. Gosh

(December 10, 2019 at 3:53 pm)Klorophyll Wrote: You are reading translations of the Qur'an people. The literary challenge concerns the original text and unless you learn Arabic there is absolutely no way - nor any right - for you to make judgments.

Orientalist (non Muslim) literature is a good starting point to have an informed opinion about the Qur'an literary content.

Let's pick a random quote : Fitzgerald Arbuthnot - eminent orientalist - says "...and though several attempts have been made to produce a work equal to it as far elegant writing is concerned, none has succeeded". Put that against random guy who a translation of thhe Koran on his shelf and read about it a couple of times then decided it was poorly worded. Gosh

That's me out, then.  I have no desire to learn Arabic.  As for my rights, I judge the Quran to be no better (and no worse) than any other holy book. It's really not for you to determine what rights I do or do not have.

And for what it's worth, I strongly suspect that the 'You can't understand the Quran unless you read it in Arabic' argument is just so much rubbish, a convenient way for Muslims to get the rest of us to accept that the Quran really doesn't mean what it says.  If the argument were valid, then Christians would be required to read the NT in Koine Greek and Aramaic, and the OT in Hebrew.

It's not on, mate.  You're not fooling anyone.

Boru

(December 10, 2019 at 3:53 pm)Klorophyll Wrote: You are reading translations of the Qur'an people. The literary challenge concerns the original text and unless you learn Arabic there is absolutely no way - nor any right - for you to make judgments.

Orientalist (non Muslim) literature is a good starting point to have an informed opinion about the Qur'an literary content.

Let's pick a random quote : Fitzgerald Arbuthnot - eminent orientalist - says "...and though several attempts have been made to produce a work equal to it as far elegant writing is concerned, none has succeeded". Put that against random guy who has a translation of the Koran on his shelf, read about it a couple of times then decided it was poorly worded. Gosh

So the English translations muslims quote at us as evidence of how wonderful the book is are meaningless (beyond our opinions to the effect anywat) because they’re not in Arabic?

Why bother then?

(December 10, 2019 at 4:03 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: That's me out, then.  I have no desire to learn Arabic.  As for my rights, I judge the Quran to be no better (and no worse) than any other holy book. It's really not for you to determine what rights I do or do not have.

I already said you have the whole orientalist literature - which is skeptical of any Islamic claim - to look at. And until you do that you only have the right to withhold judgment, just as you do with the existence of God.

(December 10, 2019 at 4:03 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: And for what it's worth, I strongly suspect that the 'You can't understand the Quran unless you read it in Arabic' argument is just so much rubbish, a convenient way for Muslims to get the rest of us to accept that the Quran really doesn't mean what it says.  If the argument were valid, then Christians would be required to read the NT in Koine Greek and Aramaic, and the OT in Hebrew.

Your suspicions are understandable given the seriousness of the matter. The next (rational) step is to do some homework. Also I still can't believe you allow yourselves to put the Qur'an and the O/N Testament hand in hand. The original sayings of Jesus are long gone, completely lost and scattered before even the first Council of nicaea.

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(December 10, 2019 at 4:09 pm)The Valkyrie Wrote: So the English translations muslims quote at us as evidence of how wonderful the book is are meaningless (beyond our opinions to the effect anywat) because they’re not in Arabic?

Why bother then?

If these quotes are meant to convey the aesthetical aspect of the original text, then yes they don't say much. Again you can only defer to experts' judgment on this book.

So we’re now back to “No one can truly understand the book unless you’re a holy man who has dedicated his life to studying it, so you cannot judge it for yourself, even if you read Arabic, so you should do ehat the priests tell you!”

Gotcha.

Yeah, like I said at the beginning, I’ll give it a miss.

(December 10, 2019 at 4:34 pm)The Valkyrie Wrote: So we’re now back to “No one can truly understand the book unless you’re a holy man who has dedicated his life to studying it, so you cannot judge it for yourself, even if you read Arabic, so you should do ehat the priests tell you!”

Gotcha.

Yeah, like I said at the beginning, I’ll give it a miss.

And how do you view the creepy priests ? You consider yourself better equipped to understand these texts than them ?

Myself? No.

But certainly a neutral scholar who is not a member of the religion or a priest who has a personal mission to promote it.

And since many of the priestly scholars can’t even agree...

(December 10, 2019 at 3:53 pm)Klorophyll Wrote: You are reading translations of the Qur'an people. The literary challenge concerns the original text and unless you learn Arabic there is absolutely no way - nor any right - for you to make judgments.

? are you saying that the Quran is a black box only opens for Arabs ?
This is one big false claim that is used by Muslims who crack in front of arguments from non-Arabs. So they run from the embarrassment  of failing at discussions by throwing this excuse in the faces of their foes.

Ask yourself; what kind of God reveals a book that is clear to Arabs but a black box to non-Arabs?
That is one troll of a God, that is racist too.
But opening the Quran and reading, we find this verse:

Quote:Sura 41, The Quran:
http://quran.ksu.edu.sa/index.php?l=en#a...rans=en_sh

( 44 )   And if We had made it a non-Arabic Qur'an, they would have said, "Why are its verses not explained in detail [in our language]? Is it a foreign [recitation] and an Arab [messenger]?" Say, "It is, for those who believe, a guidance and cure." And those who do not believe - in their ears is deafness, and it is upon them blindness. Those are being called from a distant place.

The Quran is a cure for one's logic, one's mind and soul, as long as the reader "Understands" what's in it.
So it's up for those who understands it in Arabic to translate it; just like the ancient Muslims did.

Again: the Quran is all about meaning. Muslims even tried it once; they translated the Quran to all languages and it served as the constitution of huge foreign empires like the great Ottoman empire.

Quote:Orientalist (non Muslim) literature is a good starting point to have an informed opinion about the Qur'an literary content.

No it's not. The orientalist sources in many times treat Muslims like cattle; see this video to understand -it's very short but worth your whole topic-:






Just a question: are you and Benny related?

Quote: Let's pick a random quote : Fitzgerald Arbuthnot - eminent orientalist - says "...and though several attempts have been made to produce a work equal to it as far elegant writing is concerned, none has succeeded". Put that against random guy who has a translation of the Koran on his shelf, read about it a couple of times then decided it was poorly worded. Gosh

http://reappropriate.co/2014/04/what-is-...so-racism/

Quote:And, perhaps that’s not entirely surprising. Although Orientalism has been asserted to be one of the three pillars of White supremacy by Andrea Smith in her seminal paper “Heteropatriarchy and the Three Pillars of White Supremacy” — with Orientalism as a separate and distinct logic alongside anti-Blackness and anti-Indigenous colonialism — Orientalism also appears to be among the least discussed and most poorly understood logic of White supremacy even within digital anti-racist spaces

Benny; do you understand what I quoted; you don't want to quote what Orientalism and its scholars suggest; believe me...or does my strength give you strength ?

Klorophyll,

So, do you have any evidence for god, or...?

It seems that there are endless arguments for and against this religion or that religion but which religion is more functional than another might be a better question. Whether you are an atheist, deist, or etc...it’s obvious that belief leads to endpoints. It appears to me that muslim belief ends, at least for some, in headlessness. Arguing for Sharia law to citizens who enjoy the freedom provided by the constitution for the United States is a hard sell to say the least. It would take nothing short of fear and terror to proselytize.

The fact that we all have the freedom to speak frankly about this topic and many others is evidence of the superior structure of society in which we live. Whether you like it or not or recognize it or not, the very foundation of rights and freedoms we share are based on a system of governance that the rest of the world does not enjoy. If this conversation was happening in some middle eastern countries we dissenters could all be arrested and summarily executed on the spot.

While I respect the rights of the proponents of Islam to practice their conscience PEACEABLY I am thankful I do not have to live with their system of governance.