(December 11, 2019 at 12:51 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:

(December 11, 2019 at 12:38 pm)maxolla Wrote: My belief is more carefully chosen based on logical conclusions.  I have been given two options belief in a deity or disbelief in a deity.  After weighing the evidence I have chosen to belief in its existence.  Yes beliefs are chosen, not randomly but by weighing evidence.

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Good points.  Do you believe then that Jesus existed? Why?

I don't, for several reasons:

-There are no contemporaneous mentions of Jesus (please don't bother to list those that you think qualify.  They don't.)

-We have nothing written by Jesus.

-The later accounts of Jesus are internally inconsistent, and inconsistent with each other.

-The miracles attributed to Jesus in those accounts are re-worked versions of miracles from other religions.

-A very good case can be made that Christianity would have proceeded as it did without an historic Jesus.

Boru

This is where the discussion gets interesting.  You’ve just made five unsupported claims.  Actually six with “please don’t bother to list those that you think qualify.  They don’t”.  I’m perfectly willing to talk specifics with regards to evidence but wouldn’t a starting point be a willingness to at least weigh the evidence on the merits?

I’m curious how the "Jesus myth" was perpetrated.  This claim seems to be the most outrageous.  One of the, arguably, most written about figures in human history has been made up?  The idea that Jesus never existed is as much a fantastic claim as to say Abraham Lincoln didn’t exist.  The story of Jesus of Nazareth is one that has been corroborated many times over and repeated for over two thousand years.  If Jesus did not exist then we have one of the biggest conspiracies ever perpetrated?  Perpetrated by generations of individuals with a oneness of purpose in the perpetration.  I wonder what the purpose would be for a conspiracy spanning over two thousand years of a phantom named Jesus.

There are certainly contemporaneous mentions of Jesus but you have deemed them unqualified by your standards I assume.

Max

(December 11, 2019 at 1:55 pm)maxolla Wrote: This is where the discussion gets interesting.  You’ve just made five unsupported claims.  Actually six with “please don’t bother to list those that you think qualify.  They don’t”.  I’m perfectly willing to talk specifics with regards to evidence but wouldn’t a starting point be a willingness to at least weigh the evidence on the merits?

I’m curious how the "Jesus myth" was perpetrated.  This claim seems to be the most outrageous.  One of the, arguably, most written about figures in human history has been made up?  The idea that Jesus never existed is as much a fantastic claim as to say Abraham Lincoln didn’t exist.  The story of Jesus of Nazareth is one that has been corroborated many times over and repeated for over two thousand years.  If Jesus did not exist then we have one of the biggest conspiracies ever perpetrated?  Perpetrated by generations of individuals with a oneness of purpose in the perpetration.  I wonder what the purpose would be for a conspiracy spanning over two thousand years of a phantom named Jesus.

There are certainly contemporaneous mentions of Jesus but you have deemed them unqualified by your standards I assume.

Max

Yes, and I'm king Isildur. You can't beat death, you cant perform magic, even if your jesus character existed, the legend surrounding him is impossible, no one returns from death, performs miracles or anything that gives comfort to your simple mind. For all I care its nothing but a sad tale of a jewish fella that got nailed to a cross by the romans, then bloated by idiots over the centuries.

(December 11, 2019 at 2:10 pm)LastPoet Wrote:

(December 11, 2019 at 1:55 pm)maxolla Wrote: This is where the discussion gets interesting.  You’ve just made five unsupported claims.  Actually six with “please don’t bother to list those that you think qualify.  They don’t”.  I’m perfectly willing to talk specifics with regards to evidence but wouldn’t a starting point be a willingness to at least weigh the evidence on the merits?

I’m curious how the "Jesus myth" was perpetrated.  This claim seems to be the most outrageous.  One of the, arguably, most written about figures in human history has been made up?  The idea that Jesus never existed is as much a fantastic claim as to say Abraham Lincoln didn’t exist.  The story of Jesus of Nazareth is one that has been corroborated many times over and repeated for over two thousand years.  If Jesus did not exist then we have one of the biggest conspiracies ever perpetrated?  Perpetrated by generations of individuals with a oneness of purpose in the perpetration.  I wonder what the purpose would be for a conspiracy spanning over two thousand years of a phantom named Jesus.

There are certainly contemporaneous mentions of Jesus but you have deemed them unqualified by your standards I assume.

Max

Yes, and I'm king Isildur. You can't beat death, you cant perform magic, even if your jesus character existed, the legend surrounding him is impossible, no one returns from death, performs miracles or anything that gives comfort to your simple mind. For all I care its nothing but a sad tale of a jewish fella that got nailed to a cross by the romans, then bloated by idiots over the centuries.

All because some Jewish chick didn’t want to be stoned to death for sitting on a dick outside of marriage...

(December 11, 2019 at 1:55 pm)maxolla Wrote:

(December 11, 2019 at 12:51 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: I don't, for several reasons:

-There are no contemporaneous mentions of Jesus (please don't bother to list those that you think qualify.  They don't.)

-We have nothing written by Jesus.

-The later accounts of Jesus are internally inconsistent, and inconsistent with each other.

-The miracles attributed to Jesus in those accounts are re-worked versions of miracles from other religions.

-A very good case can be made that Christianity would have proceeded as it did without an historic Jesus.

Boru

This is where the discussion gets interesting.  You’ve just made five unsupported claims.  Actually six with “please don’t bother to list those that you think qualify.  They don’t”.  I’m perfectly willing to talk specifics with regards to evidence but wouldn’t a starting point be a willingness to at least weigh the evidence on the merits?

I’m curious how the "Jesus myth" was perpetrated.  This claim seems to be the most outrageous.  One of the, arguably, most written about figures in human history has been made up?  The idea that Jesus never existed is as much a fantastic claim as to say Abraham Lincoln didn’t exist.  The story of Jesus of Nazareth is one that has been corroborated many times over and repeated for over two thousand years.  If Jesus did not exist then we have one of the biggest conspiracies ever perpetrated?  Perpetrated by generations of individuals with a oneness of purpose in the perpetration.  I wonder what the purpose would be for a conspiracy spanning over two thousand years of a phantom named Jesus.

There are certainly contemporaneous mentions of Jesus but you have deemed them unqualified by your standards I assume.

Max

Just because someone is written about doesn’t mean they exist or existed.

Oh, excuse me a minute, I have to get the bugspray. Spuderman is hanging off the side of my building again!

Of course Jesus has been written about a lot. He’s the symbol of a religion that used his name, along with many more bloody tools, to spread their belief around the world.

It has already been mentioned how myths perpetuate over time.

Do you believe aliens abduct people? Every year more and more people seem to.

And no, there are NO contemporary weitings about him. The first mention is from many decades later.

(December 11, 2019 at 1:55 pm)maxolla Wrote:

(December 11, 2019 at 12:51 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: I don't, for several reasons:

-There are no contemporaneous mentions of Jesus (please don't bother to list those that you think qualify.  They don't.)

-We have nothing written by Jesus.

-The later accounts of Jesus are internally inconsistent, and inconsistent with each other.

-The miracles attributed to Jesus in those accounts are re-worked versions of miracles from other religions.

-A very good case can be made that Christianity would have proceeded as it did without an historic Jesus.

Boru

This is where the discussion gets interesting.  You’ve just made five unsupported claims.  Actually six with “please don’t bother to list those that you think qualify.  They don’t”.  I’m perfectly willing to talk specifics with regards to evidence but wouldn’t a starting point be a willingness to at least weigh the evidence on the merits?

I’m curious how the "Jesus myth" was perpetrated.  This claim seems to be the most outrageous.  One of the, arguably, most written about figures in human history has been made up?  The idea that Jesus never existed is as much a fantastic claim as to say Abraham Lincoln didn’t exist.  The story of Jesus of Nazareth is one that has been corroborated many times over and repeated for over two thousand years.  If Jesus did not exist then we have one of the biggest conspiracies ever perpetrated?  Perpetrated by generations of individuals with a oneness of purpose in the perpetration.  I wonder what the purpose would be for a conspiracy spanning over two thousand years of a phantom named Jesus.

There are certainly contemporaneous mentions of Jesus but you have deemed them unqualified by your standards I assume.

Max

If my claims are unsupported, you'll need to show contemporaneous accounts (meaning accounts written during his purported lifetime) of a figure who corresponds to the Jesus of the Gospel narrative.

You can, of course, list whatever accounts you think would support an historic Jesus.  I only asked that you not do so because these (Tacitus, Pliny, Josephus, etc) have been refuted so often that it becomes tiresome.

If being frequently written about is a basis for historicity, then King Arthur and Robin Hood are historic figures.  But perpetuation of the Jesus myth isn't all that hard to explain.  It perpetuated in the same way that any other religion does.  Are you claiming that the figures in Greek mythology and Hinduism are historic?

But I don't think the Jesus myth is a conspiracy in the sense you seem to be using the word.  I suspect that the great majority of Christians sincerely believe in an historic Jesus and aren't trying to fool anybody about it, which would seem to be required for this to be a conspiracy.

Boru

There are 2 versions of Jesus.
The first is Jesus the prophet. He lived and died.
The second is "Roman Jesus"; the figure we see drawn in "Roman" based Churches.

The first Jesus called for God; Roman slaves believed in his message and believed in the salvation that came with him.

The second Jesus can't talk; poor thing is a mere drawing on some Roman-Christian Church; collecting dust.

The first Jesus was famous for doing many miracles, and especially for a book that was revealed to him called "the bible".

The second Jesus was famous for authoring a porn book, focusing on Jewish erotica mixed with Roman porn that was infamous for its brutality, when executed you get the Conquest of America, Vlad the Impaler, the Crusades,...

The first Jesus is my master.

The second Jesus is...a gladiator with mental problems. They even called him "Mental Messiah" in ancient Rome. He got defeated by Muslims, Mongols, Romans..and eventually the outnumbered atheists and illumination period knights..Poor thing is a drawing on a wall; he can't fight.

(December 11, 2019 at 3:09 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote: There are 2 versions of Jesus.
The first is Jesus the prophet. He lived and died.
The second is "Roman Jesus"; the figure we see drawn in "Roman" based Churches.

The first Jesus called for God; Roman slaves believed in his message and believed in the salvation that came with him.

The second Jesus can't talk; poor thing is a mere drawing on some Roman-Christian Church; collecting dust.

The first Jesus was famous for doing many miracles, and especially for a book that was revealed to him called "the bible".

The second Jesus was famous for authoring a porn book, focusing on Jewish erotica mixed with Roman porn that was infamous for its brutality, when executed you get the Conquest of America, Vlad the Impaler, the Crusades,...

The first Jesus is my master.

The second Jesus is...a gladiator with mental problems. They even called him "Mental Messiah" in ancient Rome. He got defeated by Muslims, Mongols, Romans..and eventually the outnumbered atheists and illumination period knights..Poor thing is a drawing on a wall; he can't fight.

I suppose you are fucked up out of your mind. I think everyone here is withness of that.

No jesus wrote or had any of magic book "revealed to them"...regardless of what you believe about the existence of either of the two fictional characters you're comparing above. That's simply not how any of that happened, and if we're going down that route....then we can abandon all pretense of historicity from the outset.

But what is the second Jesus doing here?
I thought this was a topic about Islam !

Two men say they’re Jesus,
One of them must be wrong!