(December 16, 2019 at 1:39 pm)Klorophyll Wrote:

(December 16, 2019 at 1:33 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote: So we're in agreement that Allah as defined (omniscient) does not and cannot have free will.

Free will underlies second guessing which is a human attribute. It's simply an empty concept for God. And the fact that he cannot have a vacuous property is not problem.

So you agree with me that Allah does not and cannot have free will, right? Do you think there's some kind of 'gotcha' you will fall into if you admit we agree on this point? Otherwise I don't get why you are still arguing about something we have reached an agreement on. I assure you, I'm not waiting to pounce.

(December 16, 2019 at 2:00 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote:

(December 16, 2019 at 1:39 pm)Klorophyll Wrote: Free will underlies second guessing which is a human attribute. It's simply an empty concept for God. And the fact that he cannot have a vacuous property is not problem.

So you agree with me that Allah does not and cannot have free will, right? Do you think there's some kind of 'gotcha' you will fall into if you admit we agree on this point? Otherwise I don't get why you are still arguing about something we have reached an agreement on. I assure you, I'm not waiting to pounce.

Yes we do agree on that. I am trying to explain that it's not a problem in the first place.

(December 16, 2019 at 1:35 pm)Klorophyll Wrote:

(December 16, 2019 at 1:05 pm)brewer Wrote: Thanks for the ammunition.

https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran.../long.html

https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/abs/long.html

What did you expect exactly? Heaven for Hitler? Also the word disbeliever is not the right translation. Kufr' in Islam is much more than just not believing, it's denying truth knowingly, which is rarely the case even with atheists.

Its not ok to kill atheists?
Its ok to kill people who know Allah exists but reject him?
As if that would make a meaningful difference.

Your moral compass is so skewed, you actually think its ok to kill people for ...believing
Still fucked up.
Thanks, but no thanks.

If a deity doesn’t have freewill, that indicates a driving force behind it.

A greater deity, perhaps?

(December 16, 2019 at 1:05 pm)brewer Wrote: Thanks for the ammunition.

https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran.../long.html
[/url]

Allow me to refute:

Quote:Quran says:
Sura 2
http://quran.ksu.edu.sa/index.php?l=en#a...rans=en_sh

( 6 )   Indeed, those who disbelieve - it is all the same for them whether you warn them or do not warn them - they will not believe

Quote:brewer quotes:

Don't bother warning the disbelievers. Allah has made it impossible for them to believe so that he can torture them forever after they die. 2:6-7

Is it authentic, legal or even respectful to add the command "don't bother warning..." ?
This is a direct twisting of the original meaning and context

---------

Quote:Quran says:
Sura 2
http://quran.ksu.edu.sa/index.php?l=en#a...rans=en_sh

( 10 )   In their hearts is disease, so Allah has increased their disease; and for them is a painful punishment because they [habitually] used to lie.

Quote:brewer quotes:

Allah has sickened the hearts of disbelievers and increased their disease. He is a spiritual anti-doctor.

? are you sure we are quoting from the same book?

---------

Quote:Quran says:
Sura 2
http://quran.ksu.edu.sa/index.php?l=en#a...rans=en_sh

( 24 )   But if you do not - and you will never be able to - then fear the Fire, whose fuel is men and stones, prepared for the disbelievers.

Quote:brewer quotes:


If you try to compose a surah that is better than those in the Quran, and then fail, Allah will burn you forever if you in the fire that he has prepared for disbelievers, whose fuel is men and stones. 2:24

Gradually this is getting more and more gross..at least get the translation right, brewer???

----------

I understand that you and Islam are not on the same page. But resorting to such cheap websites that don't even have respect for the literacy of copying tell me a lot about the motives of the site builders.

But really ? bewer, nothing I despise in this life more than not respecting the source. What you called "ammunition" is obsolete and toxic ammunition that caused me radiation poisoning.




[url=https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/2/index.htm#10]

(December 16, 2019 at 12:17 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote: Welcome, NightHawk!

---

(December 16, 2019 at 10:40 am)Klorophyll Wrote: A deity doesn't change its mind by definition, everything is "figured out" from the first shot. This fallacy is why people think foreknowledge implies coercion.

Saying "not being able to change its mind" is perfectly equivalent to saying "God cannot make 1+1=3". Both are complete logical impossibilities and have nothing to do with omniscience.

It's only a logical impossibility because of the omniscience. And that's why the idea of an omniscient being with free will is incoherent. A being that can't change its mind does not have free will, by definition.

Hey thanks!

(December 16, 2019 at 2:07 pm)Deesse23 Wrote:

(December 16, 2019 at 1:35 pm)Klorophyll Wrote: What did you expect exactly? Heaven for Hitler? Also the word disbeliever is not the right translation. Kufr' in Islam is much more than just not believing, it's denying truth knowingly, which is rarely the case even with atheists.

Its not ok to kill atheists?
Its ok to kill people who know Allah exists but reject him?
As if that would make a meaningful difference.

Your moral compass is so skewed, you actually think its ok to kill people for ...believing
Still fucked up.
Thanks, but no thanks.

Who mentioned killing anyway? The verses we're referring to concern afterlife. Even the most radical (scholarly) interpretations of Jihad never allow prosecution for the simple individual act of disbelieving.

Even the so-called Jizya or taxation (which women/children whatever their religion don't pay anyway) inside an Islamic state is there in exchange for protecting non Muslims and exemptiing them from any kind of military service (you are free as a citizen not to join a war the Islamic State you live in is conducting, unlike every military law today in the world) . And Muslims are compelled to pay Zakat too to the State, and the latter is usually higher.

(December 16, 2019 at 2:23 pm)Klorophyll Wrote:

(December 16, 2019 at 2:07 pm)Deesse23 Wrote: Its not ok to kill atheists?
Its ok to kill people who know Allah exists but reject him?
As if that would make a meaningful difference.

Your moral compass is so skewed, you actually think its ok to kill people for ...believing
Still fucked up.
Thanks, but no thanks.

Who mentioned killing anyway? The verses we're referring to concern afterlife. Even the most radical (scholarly) interpretations of Jihad never allow prosecution for the simple individual act of disbelieving.

Ahh, so its not atheists and only in afterlife!? Still fucked up...just for believing. Its not about the punishment, but about what people get punished for. You do not understand, do you? Its because of your skewed moral compass.

Most muslims disagree with you anyway. Dont argue with me, argue with them.

(December 16, 2019 at 2:23 pm)Klorophyll Wrote: Even the so-called Jizya or taxation (which women/children whatever their religion don't pay anyway) inside an Islamic state is there in exchange for protecting non Muslims and exemptiing them from any kind of military service (you are free as a citizen not to join a war the Islamic State you live in is conducting, unlike every military law today in the world) . And Muslims are compelled to pay Zakat too to the State, and the latter is usually higher.

Irrelevant

(December 14, 2019 at 5:35 pm)Klorophyll Wrote: A coherent definition of god would be like this : the unique immortal, omnipotent and omniscient being.

Why did I define God like that? Because it's the only interesting definition. Any mortal being will cease to exist and won't interfere in any way with any creature nor will meet us in an eventual afterlife.

And you seem, like everyone here, to be overly repugnant of theology, which is your former religion's fault, and not any other religion.

I am intrigued by why you would think that nebulous nothing counts as a coherent definition.

You may as well have said "god is the colour of truth".

(December 16, 2019 at 2:32 pm)Deesse23 Wrote: Ahh, so its not atheists and only in afterlife!? Still fucked up...just for believing. Its not about the punishment, but about what people get punished for.  You do not understand, do you? Its because of your skewed moral compass.

And who guides the moral compass then? you?

(December 16, 2019 at 2:32 pm)Deesse23 Wrote: Most muslims disagree with you anyway. Dont argue with me, argue with them.

I am speaking about scholarly interpretations of Jihad, not what most Muslims think. And if you don't feel like arguing about it, at least don't put words in most muslims' mouths.