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**brewer** · (This post was last modified: December 16, 2019 at 1:06 pm by brewer.)

Thanks for the ammunition.

https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran.../long.html

https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/abs/long.html

**BrianSoddingBoru4** · December 16, 2019 at 1:05 pm

(December 16, 2019 at 12:52 pm)Klorophyll Wrote:
(December 16, 2019 at 12:44 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote: I'm concluding from the definition of 'free will' that a being that can't change its mind doesn't have it.

You are simply being anthropomorphic here. The definition of free will being the ability to pick a choice is specific to creatures, and obviously doesn't apply to an all powerful deity. Choice in our case only results from uncertainty and imperfect knowledge.

If an all powerful deity has no free will, then such a being is unworthy of worship. Since God is constrained to behave in a certain way, then worshipping God for anything is akin to worshiping water for being wet or worshipping dirt for being dirty.

Boru

Pat Mustard · December 16, 2019 at 1:26 pm

(December 16, 2019 at 12:17 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote: Welcome, NightHawk!

(December 16, 2019 at 10:40 am)Klorophyll Wrote: A deity doesn't change its mind by definition, everything is "figured out" from the first shot. This fallacy is why people think foreknowledge implies coercion.

Saying "not being able to change its mind" is perfectly equivalent to saying "God cannot make 1+1=3". Both are complete logical impossibilities and have nothing to do with omniscience.

It's only a logical impossibility because of the omniscience. And that's why the idea of an omniscient being with free will is incoherent. A being that can't change its mind does not have free will, by definition.

And it's also why omniscidnce and omnipotence are mutually exclusive. If you're all knowing you have no power, because you will know ahead of time every action taken, including your own. In fact omniscience effectively renders a being powerless, as they have only a single path they must travel, no choices.

~~R00tKiT~~ · (This post was last modified: December 16, 2019 at 1:33 pm by R00tKiT.)

Are you really that retarded guys? If God knows ahead of time everything he will do, it just means he knows it. When you say he's ((constrained)) you SUPPOSE ALREADY that he WANTS to change his mind, which he doesn't because his omniscience granted him the perfect most beautiful and satisfying future for himself, there is no second guessing or constraints involved, and thus no contradiction.

**Mister Agenda** · December 16, 2019 at 1:33 pm

(December 16, 2019 at 12:52 pm)Klorophyll Wrote:
(December 16, 2019 at 12:44 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote: I'm concluding from the definition of 'free will' that a being that can't change its mind doesn't have it.

You are simply being anthropomorphic here. The definition of free will being the ability to pick a choice is specific to creatures, and obviously doesn't apply to an all powerful deity. Choice in our case only results from uncertainty and imperfect knowledge.

So we're in agreement that Allah as defined (omniscient) does not and cannot have free will.

~~R00tKiT~~ · December 16, 2019 at 1:35 pm

(December 16, 2019 at 1:05 pm)brewer Wrote: Thanks for the ammunition.

https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran.../long.html

https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/abs/long.html

What did you expect exactly? Heaven for Hitler? Also the word disbeliever is not the right translation. Kufr' in Islam is much more than just not believing, it's denying truth knowingly, which is rarely the case even with atheists.

**The Grand Nudger** · (This post was last modified: December 16, 2019 at 1:42 pm by The Grand Nudger.)

People also worship nature. Just raw, unfiltered, no extra shit added nature with a capital N. It doesn't have free will either, but it's difficult to see why this diminishes nature as a valid object of worship...and so it's not clear why it would diminish any gods with respect to the same.

On this rock, an absurdly strong argument that water and dirt are also valid objects of worship isn't difficult to come by.

As an aside, it's common for people on the boards to notice that so much of the divine character boils down to a misapprehension of natural forces and circumstances - in this view, people are all, ultimately, worshipping nature. The sense of the numinous signifies actual content in the world, and this content is and has always defined the field of worship.

~~R00tKiT~~ · December 16, 2019 at 1:39 pm

(December 16, 2019 at 1:33 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote:
(December 16, 2019 at 12:52 pm)Klorophyll Wrote: You are simply being anthropomorphic here. The definition of free will being the ability to pick a choice is specific to creatures, and obviously doesn't apply to an all powerful deity. Choice in our case only results from uncertainty and imperfect knowledge.

So we're in agreement that Allah as defined (omniscient) does not and cannot have free will.

Free will underlies second guessing which is a human attribute. It's simply an empty concept for God. And the fact that he cannot have a vacuous property is not problem.

**brewer** · December 16, 2019 at 1:45 pm

(December 16, 2019 at 1:35 pm)Klorophyll Wrote:
(December 16, 2019 at 1:05 pm)brewer Wrote: Thanks for the ammunition.

https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran.../long.html

https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/abs/long.html

What did you expect exactly? Heaven for Hitler? Also the word disbeliever is not the right translation. Kufr' in Islam is much more than just not believing, it's denying truth knowingly, which is rarely the case even with atheists.

Blah, blah, blah........... Your belief book is fucked up.

**BrianSoddingBoru4** · December 16, 2019 at 1:49 pm

(December 16, 2019 at 1:35 pm)Gae Bolga Wrote: People also worship nature. Just raw, unfiltered, no extra shit added nature with a capital N. It doesn't have free will either, but it's difficult to see why this diminishes nature as a valid object of worship...and so it's not clear why it would diminish any gods with respect to the same.

On this rock, an absurdly strong argument that water and dirt are also valid objects of worship isn't difficult to come by.

As an aside, it's common for people on the boards to notice that so much of the divine character boils down to a misapprehension of natural forces and circumstances - in this view, people are all, ultimately, worshipping nature. The sense of the numinous at least signifies actual content in the world, and this content is and has always defined the field of worship.

My objection isn't what is a valid object of worship, but the reason worship is paid. People worship Allah to get into Paradise. If Allah has no free will (which is problematic for the sobriquet 'The Merciful'), then worshiping Allah for an afterlife reward is no different than worshipping water for the same reason.

Boru

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