(December 16, 2019 at 2:32 pm)Deesse23 Wrote:

(December 16, 2019 at 2:23 pm)Klorophyll Wrote: Who mentioned killing anyway? The verses we're referring to concern afterlife. Even the most radical (scholarly) interpretations of Jihad never allow prosecution for the simple individual act of disbelieving.

Ahh, so its not atheists and only in afterlife!? Still fucked up...just for believing. Its not about the punishment, but about what people get punished for.  You do not understand, do you? Its because of your skewed moral compass.

Most muslims disagree with you anyway. Dont argue with me, argue with them.

(December 16, 2019 at 2:23 pm)Klorophyll Wrote: Even the so-called Jizya or taxation (which women/children whatever their religion don't pay anyway) inside an Islamic state is there in exchange for protecting non Muslims and exemptiing them from any kind of military service (you are free as a citizen not to join a war the Islamic State you live in is conducting, unlike every military law today in the world) . And Muslims are compelled to pay Zakat too to the State, and the latter is usually higher.

Irrelevant

Muslims who believe in the Hadith believe in killing atheists.
Muslims who believe in the Quran and reject the Hadith do not believe in killing atheists.

See this verse:

Quote:Sura 2, The Quran:
http://quran.ksu.edu.sa/index.php?l=en#a...rans=en_sh

( 256 )   There shall be no compulsion in [acceptance of] the religion. The right course has become clear from the wrong. So whoever disbelieves in Taghut and believes in Allah has grasped the most trustworthy handhold with no break in it. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing.

Even insulting the non-believers is wrong and forbidden in the Quran:

Quote:Sura 6, The Quran:
http://quran.ksu.edu.sa/index.php?l=en#a...rans=en_sh

( 108 )   And do not insult those they invoke other than Allah, lest they insult Allah in enmity without knowledge. Thus We have made pleasing to every community their deeds. Then to their Lord is their return, and He will inform them about what they used to do.

(December 16, 2019 at 2:52 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote: Muslims who believe in the Hadith believe in killing atheists.

This is the cheapest lie I ever read about Islam. You're more misguided about this than these guys.

(December 16, 2019 at 2:50 pm)Klorophyll Wrote:

(December 16, 2019 at 2:32 pm)Deesse23 Wrote: Ahh, so its not atheists and only in afterlife!? Still fucked up...just for believing. Its not about the punishment, but about what people get punished for.  You do not understand, do you? Its because of your skewed moral compass.

And who guides the moral compass then? you?

When you kick a dog it barks. So if your god tells you to kill people for believing, you would do it, right?

(December 16, 2019 at 2:50 pm)Klorophyll Wrote:

(December 16, 2019 at 2:32 pm)Deesse23 Wrote: Most muslims disagree with you anyway. Dont argue with me, argue with them.

I am speaking about scholarly interpretations of Jihad, not what most Muslims think. And if you don't feel like arguing about it, at least don't put words in most muslims' mouths.

I dont put words in muslims mouths, its a fact. A fact that butthurts you thats why you are trying to weasel out.
So why do most people and scholars do disagree on the holy book? Must be poorly written that booklet, if you have to be a scholar to understand it correctly. Are you a scholar by the way?

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(December 16, 2019 at 2:52 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote:

(December 16, 2019 at 2:32 pm)Deesse23 Wrote: Ahh, so its not atheists and only in afterlife!? Still fucked up...just for believing. Its not about the punishment, but about what people get punished for.  You do not understand, do you? Its because of your skewed moral compass.

Most muslims disagree with you anyway. Dont argue with me, argue with them.

Irrelevant

Muslims who believe in the Hadith believe in killing atheists.
Muslims who believe in the Quran and reject the Hadith do not believe in killing atheists.

And the former ones are wrong why?
Scholars?

---

Quote:

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(December 16, 2019 at 2:59 pm)Deesse23 Wrote: AtlasS33
[quote pid='1947748' dateline='1576522376']
Muslims who believe in the Hadith believe in killing atheists.
Muslims who believe in the Quran and reject the Hadith do not believe in killing atheists.

And the former ones are wrong why?
Scholars?  

[/quote]

Because they believe in the Hadith; which the God of Islam never revealed by the admissions of all Muslim sects.

(December 16, 2019 at 2:59 pm)Deesse23 Wrote: I dont put words in muslims mouths, its a fact. A fact that butthurts you thats why you are trying to weasel out.
So why do most people and scholars do disagree on the holy book? Must be poorly written that booklet, if you have to be a scholar to understand it correctly. Are you a scholar by the way?

It's not a fact, it's what you read in the news.
Most people should simply be educated enough to ask scholars instead of lying.

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(December 16, 2019 at 3:12 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote:

---

Because they believe in the Hadith; which the God of Islam never revealed by the admissions of all Muslim sects

---

Atlas, please, I am begging you, stop preaching this nonsense, you don't understand your religion well. If the hadiths were not there the Qur'an itself is incomprehensible in so many instances. I asked you like one thousand times how do you perform prayer then according to the Qur'an alone?

(December 16, 2019 at 3:28 pm)Klorophyll Wrote:

(December 16, 2019 at 2:59 pm)Deesse23 Wrote: I dont put words in muslims mouths, its a fact. A fact that butthurts you thats why you are trying to weasel out.
So why do most people and scholars do disagree on the holy book? Must be poorly written that booklet, if you have to be a scholar to understand it correctly. Are you a scholar by the way?

It's not a fact, it's what you read in the news.

Is this the "fake news" approach? Weak sauce.

(December 16, 2019 at 3:28 pm)Klorophyll Wrote: Most people should simply be educated enough to ask scholars instead of lying.

Scholars know better than statistics and polls?
Where do scholars derive their authority from?

(December 16, 2019 at 3:28 pm)Klorophyll Wrote:

(December 16, 2019 at 3:12 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote: Because they believe in the Hadith; which the God of Islam never revealed by the admissions of all Muslim sects

Atlas, please, I am begging you, stop preaching this nonsense, you don't understand your religion well. If the hadiths were not there the Qur'an itself is incomprehensible in so many instances. I asked you like one thousand times how do you perform prayer then according to the Qur'an alone?

So, according to Atlass the hadiths are telling to kill nonbelievers. According to you they are part of the holy book, but dont tell to kill nonbelievers.
Yet both of you claim to be muslims, yet both of you claim to have *the truth* and the other being wrong.

So, who is right? You? Atlass? Your scholars? Atlass´scholars? Why?
You better work this out, and then come back at me, you know where to find me.


In the meantime i will continue not to kill people simply for their beliefs, based on my own moral standards, and not because some *scholar* tells me a book says so, you are damn right.  

phyllofshyte:
I already explained in great details how Islamic theology is a bit more complicated and makes much more sense than the circularities in christian literature, which are there because of the impossible core beliefs it tries to defend like trinity. Core islamic beliefs do not entail any of that and so you're required to do much more homework before sitting comfortably in you chair and claim you got our religion all figured out by using such a disgustingly confident tone.

Again, this translates to: My make-believe, is superior to your make-believe.

Any wish granting magic sky daddy from any faith is absurdly fictitious.
The Christian one. The Jewish one. The Muslim one. All the gods from Hinduism, Sikhism, Taoism. The gods of ancient Rome, and Greece. The old Norse gods. Or any of the other countless gods that have been consigned to oblivion through the course of human existence.
There is nothing exceptional or praiseworthy about your particular brand of sky wizard

Let's, for the sake of this argument, assume that there is some all-powerful creator to all that there is.  Whatever this thing is, it is outside the bounds of human comprehension. Humanity and their puny, insignificant mortal minds could not even begin to fathom the depths of existence. it is utterly beyond description. So please, stop trying.

You complain of this sick urge to label religious people, here's some breaking news for you skippy, NOBODY IS FORCING YOU TO STAY!
Go peddle your worthless camel shit someplace else!

(December 16, 2019 at 3:28 pm)Klorophyll Wrote:

(December 16, 2019 at 2:59 pm)Deesse23 Wrote: I dont put words in muslims mouths, its a fact. A fact that butthurts you thats why you are trying to weasel out.
So why do most people and scholars do disagree on the holy book? Must be poorly written that booklet, if you have to be a scholar to understand it correctly. Are you a scholar by the way?

It's not a fact, it's what you read in the news.
Most people should simply be educated enough to ask scholars instead of lying.

---

(December 16, 2019 at 3:12 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote:

---

Because they believe in the Hadith; which the God of Islam never revealed by the admissions of all Muslim sects

---

Atlas, please, I am begging you, stop preaching this nonsense, you don't understand your religion well. If the hadiths were not there the Qur'an itself is incomprehensible in so many instances. I asked you like one thousand times how do you perform prayer then according to the Qur'an alone?

But I thought the koran was supposed to be perfect, like the bible, without need of explanation?

(December 16, 2019 at 3:46 pm)Deesse23 Wrote: Is this the "fake news" approach? Weak sauce.

What's your point exactly?
It appears though that news is your only source of knowledge.

(December 16, 2019 at 3:46 pm)Deesse23 Wrote: Scholars know better than statistics and polls?

The hell they do.

(December 16, 2019 at 3:46 pm)Deesse23 Wrote: Where do scholars derive their authority from?

From dozens of years studying Islamic jurisprudence, Islamic law, tafsir', Hadith studies, Quranic studies, advanced arabic grammar, and more.

(December 16, 2019 at 3:46 pm)Deesse23 Wrote: Yet both of you claim to be muslims, yet both of you claim to have *the truth* and the other being wrong.

So, who is right? You? Atlass? Your scholars? Atlass´scholars? Why?
You better work this out, and then come back at me, you know where to find me.


In the meantime i will continue not to kill people simply for their beliefs, based on my own moral standards, and not because some *scholar* tells me a book says so, you are damn right.  

I don't want to disrespect Atlas but he's really really not well versed in his stuff, I already asked him a clear question he couldn't address concerning his repugnance of Hadiths.

Until we work this out, just look up what our scholars say about "killing people".

It's ok to kill people who don't think like you. They really don't matter anyway.