(December 18, 2019 at 2:28 pm)maxolla Wrote:

(December 18, 2019 at 10:20 am)Mister Agenda Wrote: Any sufficiently advanced being could convince me it was God. As a mere mortal, I am not competent to tell the difference between God and any number of conceivable powerful beings capable of powerful feats or just manipulating my perceptions. For that matter, I can imagine having great difficulty telling God from a hallucinatory experience.

Even if God were real, there are logical problems with it being able to prove that it's the reputed tri-Omni deity that created all of existence (except itself because it was always there, for some reason or none). A real God couldn't do anything to convince us that aforementioned perception manipulators couldn't. It can't demonstrate that it's the tri-Omni Creator, it can only demonstrate that it's really powerful, or at least appears to be. Once you're above a certain level of power or illusion, we mortals can't tell the difference.

That said, I will gladly believe any reality or perception warper that claims to be God if it keeps it from torturing me.

I have to agree.  If I believed that this God was like many have made him out to be I would have nothing to do with him and would decide not to believe in him.  I would gather all the evidence I could muster to disprove his existence.  I would pile it up so high nothing else could be seen.  I would religiously worship that pile of rubbish faithfully every morning.

So much wrong with this paragraph, hard to know where to start...

Again, belief is not a decision, it is the result of being convinced. I did not make a decision not to believe in gods. I was compelled by the lack of sufficient evidence and reasoned argument, to disbelieve a god exists.

So, where should I go to get an accurate description of your god's behavior and actions, so I am able to get a correct depiction of him/her/it/they? All I see in the Old Testament, New Testament, is a god that: condones slavery, genocide, misogyny, homophobia, stoning unruly children to death, killing non-believers, killing 'witches', and more attrocities. What better source can you suggest?

It is not up to those of us that disbelieve gods exist, to 'gather up evidence' to disprove the existence of your god, whether we dislike said god's actions or not. Whether I believe or disbelieve a god exists, is completely separate from whether he acts morally or not.

I could be convinced a god exists, given demonstrable evidence and reasoned argument to support the claim, and still no worship said god. If the Christian god was demonstrated to exist, that doesn't mean I'd become a Christian.

Quote:For the most part man has constructed god in their image not the other way around.  This construction is made of a being that is unbending, revengeful, and arbitrary.  He has been depicted as a being willing and wanting to torcher those who disagree with him.  However, this is a malconstruction and unsupported in scripture.  Believe he exists or not, at least accept the fact that his character has been maligned from what scripture teaches.

So, according to your theology, as an atheist, if I were to die right now, what would my resultant afterlife look like?

(December 18, 2019 at 3:27 pm)maxolla Wrote:

(December 18, 2019 at 3:14 pm)brewer Wrote: I've read the bible a few times cover to cover. I believe that this fantasy creature is everything that the bible says. 

Maybe you could point out some specific scripture and we can discuss that. Here is an easy to choose from list: https://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/c.../long.html

And how's the assignment going, did you hand it in yet?

Sure.  We could start by recognizing that hell does not exist and never has it been depicted in the old or new testament within the original text.  Yep, it was a completely made up fiction by 3rd and 4th century Christian leaders through the Vulgate translation.  The Vulgate was the first translation from the original Hebrew and Greek in too Latin.  Out of this translation we have derived much of the modern translations.  Only recently have some modern translations begun to undo some of the misrepresentations of early translations.

Ok, so God was good enough to get the original work transferred into several people's minds and then written so that it is the inerrant work. A master work of scripture. But, that is where His power ends? He can't flex enough power to make sure the translators and councils keep the work whole? So if His power fails there, why wouldn't you just take it back a step further and realize that God has not produced a viable book that encompasses what it wants?

(December 18, 2019 at 3:57 pm)Simon Moon Wrote:

(December 18, 2019 at 2:28 pm)maxolla Wrote: I have to agree.  If I believed that this God was like many have made him out to be I would have nothing to do with him and would decide not to believe in him.  I would gather all the evidence I could muster to disprove his existence.  I would pile it up so high nothing else could be seen.  I would religiously worship that pile of rubbish faithfully every morning.

So much wrong with this paragraph, hard to know where to start...

Again, belief is not a decision, it is the result of being convinced. I did not make a decision not to believe in gods. I was compelled by the lack of sufficient evidence and reasoned argument, to disbelieve a god exists.

So, where should I go to get an accurate description of your god's behavior and actions, so I am able to get a correct depiction of him/her/it/they? All I see in the Old Testament, New Testament, is a god that: condones slavery, genocide, misogyny, homophobia, stoning unruly children to death, killing non-believers, killing 'witches', and more attrocities.

It is not up to those of us that disbelieve gods exist, to 'gather up evidence' to disprove the existence of your god, whether we dislike said god's actions or not. Whether I believe or disbelieve a god exists, is completely separate from whether he acts morally or not.

I could be convinced a god exists, given demonstrable evidence and reasoned argument to support the claim, and still no worship said god. If the Christian god was demonstrated to exist, that doesn't mean I'd become a Christian.

Quote:For the most part man has constructed god in their image not the other way around.  This construction is made of a being that is unbending, revengeful, and arbitrary.  He has been depicted as a being willing and wanting to torcher those who disagree with him.  However, this is a malconstruction and unsupported in scripture.  Believe he exists or not, at least accept the fact that his character has been maligned from what scripture teaches.

So, as an atheist, if I were to die right now, what would my resultant afterlife look like?

In old testament scripture there was a belief in the dead going to sheol. She'ol is translated as "place of darkness" and has been translated to english as “grave”. The Vulgate translation took that word and started another idea called “hell” in its place. As for the grave I don’t know much, I haven’t been. Pretty sure it’s not overly hot.

(December 18, 2019 at 4:08 pm)maxolla Wrote:

(December 18, 2019 at 3:57 pm)Simon Moon Wrote: So much wrong with this paragraph, hard to know where to start...

Again, belief is not a decision, it is the result of being convinced. I did not make a decision not to believe in gods. I was compelled by the lack of sufficient evidence and reasoned argument, to disbelieve a god exists.

So, where should I go to get an accurate description of your god's behavior and actions, so I am able to get a correct depiction of him/her/it/they? All I see in the Old Testament, New Testament, is a god that: condones slavery, genocide, misogyny, homophobia, stoning unruly children to death, killing non-believers, killing 'witches', and more attrocities.

It is not up to those of us that disbelieve gods exist, to 'gather up evidence' to disprove the existence of your god, whether we dislike said god's actions or not. Whether I believe or disbelieve a god exists, is completely separate from whether he acts morally or not.

I could be convinced a god exists, given demonstrable evidence and reasoned argument to support the claim, and still no worship said god. If the Christian god was demonstrated to exist, that doesn't mean I'd become a Christian.


So, as an atheist, if I were to die right now, what would my resultant afterlife look like?

In old testament scripture there was a belief in the dead going to sheol.  She'ol is translated as "place of darkness" and has been translated to english as “grave”.  The Vulgate translation took that word and started another idea called “hell” in its place.  As for the grave I don’t know much, I haven’t been.  Pretty sure it’s not overly hot.

I am quite familiar with the OT and the NT. I've read them both several times.

I am also quit familiar with the OT concept of sheol.

Are you saying, that if I die as a non-believer, and you die as a believer, we will both end up in sheol? Our afterlifes will be the same?

(December 18, 2019 at 4:16 pm)Simon Moon Wrote:

(December 18, 2019 at 4:08 pm)maxolla Wrote: In old testament scripture there was a belief in the dead going to sheol.  She'ol is translated as "place of darkness" and has been translated to english as “grave”.  The Vulgate translation took that word and started another idea called “hell” in its place.  As for the grave I don’t know much, I haven’t been.  Pretty sure it’s not overly hot.

I am quite familiar with the OT and the NT. I've read them both several times.

I am also quit familiar with the OT concept of sheol.

Are you saying, that if I die as a non-believer, and you die as a believer, we will both end up in sheol? Our afterlifes will be the same?

I don’t see anywhere that says differently. If you have read and are quite familiar, then maybe you can help me with my misunderstanding, if in fact I have one, regarding scripture on this. Where things get interesting is in the eschatology found in revelation but there is much debate on the ideas found there and the meaning of language referring to “lake of fire” etc.

Sheol is not translated as life so when you use the word afterlife when referring to sheol it is not according to the translation of the word.

The idea that “believers” go directly to heaven and “unbelievers” go directly to hell is not supported in scripture. However, there is evidence of the destruction of Satan and the wicked in scripture. I’m not providing details (scriptural reference), but I could.

---

(December 18, 2019 at 4:08 pm)Rhizomorph13 Wrote:

(December 18, 2019 at 3:27 pm)maxolla Wrote: Sure.  We could start by recognizing that hell does not exist and never has it been depicted in the old or new testament within the original text.  Yep, it was a completely made up fiction by 3rd and 4th century Christian leaders through the Vulgate translation.  The Vulgate was the first translation from the original Hebrew and Greek in too Latin.  Out of this translation we have derived much of the modern translations.  Only recently have some modern translations begun to undo some of the misrepresentations of early translations.

Ok, so God was good enough to get the original work transferred into several people's minds and then written so that it is the inerrant work. A master work of scripture. But, that is where His power ends? He can't flex enough power to make sure the translators and councils keep the work whole? So if His power fails there, why wouldn't you just take it back a step further and realize that God has not produced a viable book that encompasses what it wants?

Thats not exactly how I interpret what I have read and what I know about scripture. Genesis is generally accepted to be written by Moses. It is also excepted that it was written in his own words. The bible is not infallible in that it has discrepancies within it because of how it was written (human writing). There are places within the Bible where it references God saying “write this down” and then what follows is generally accepted as the words of God. Since Moses was not alive during the story of creation it is believed that the story of creation was handed down through the generations starting with Adam and Eve and so on. The idea of a man named Abraham is also found in the belief and writings of the Muslim faith. The fact that the story of creation is found in many different ancient writings of varied cultures helps validate the story of Babel and the dispersion.

The fact that there are imperfections in scripture lends to the nature of humanity (Imperfect) interfacing with their Creator (perfection).

(December 18, 2019 at 3:27 pm)maxolla Wrote:

(December 18, 2019 at 3:14 pm)brewer Wrote: I've read the bible a few times cover to cover. I believe that this fantasy creature is everything that the bible says. 

Maybe you could point out some specific scripture and we can discuss that. Here is an easy to choose from list: https://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/c.../long.html

And how's the assignment going, did you hand it in yet?

Sure.  We could start by recognizing that hell does not exist and never has it been depicted in the old or new testament within the original text.  Yep, it was a completely made up fiction by 3rd and 4th century Christian leaders through the Vulgate translation.  The Vulgate was the first translation from the original Hebrew and Greek in too Latin.  Out of this translation we have derived much of the modern translations.  Only recently have some modern translations begun to undo some of the misrepresentations of early translations.

I don't think I mentioned hell, maybe this post was meant for another. I asked you to pick a specific scripture that you believe has been "maligned" (from the list I attached) and we can discuss it.

(December 18, 2019 at 5:22 pm)brewer Wrote:

(December 18, 2019 at 3:27 pm)maxolla Wrote: Sure.  We could start by recognizing that hell does not exist and never has it been depicted in the old or new testament within the original text.  Yep, it was a completely made up fiction by 3rd and 4th century Christian leaders through the Vulgate translation.  The Vulgate was the first translation from the original Hebrew and Greek in too Latin.  Out of this translation we have derived much of the modern translations.  Only recently have some modern translations begun to undo some of the misrepresentations of early translations.

I don't think I mentioned hell, maybe this post was meant for another. I asked you to pick a specific scripture that you believe has been "maligned" (from the list I attached) and we can discuss it.

Looking for your post now. I didn’t see any quoted scripture.

(December 18, 2019 at 5:24 pm)maxolla Wrote:

(December 18, 2019 at 5:22 pm)brewer Wrote: I don't think I mentioned hell, maybe this post was meant for another. I asked you to pick a specific scripture that you believe has been "maligned" (from the list I attached) and we can discuss it.

Looking for your post now.  I didn’t see any quoted scripture.

I'm letting you pick, there are plenty in the link.

I don’t have anything to argue with regarding the information found at the link you provided. I don’t contend that God has never destroyed and that he will never destroy.

(December 18, 2019 at 4:31 pm)maxolla Wrote:

(December 18, 2019 at 4:16 pm)Simon Moon Wrote: I am quite familiar with the OT and the NT. I've read them both several times.

I am also quit familiar with the OT concept of sheol.

Are you saying, that if I die as a non-believer, and you die as a believer, we will both end up in sheol? Our afterlifes will be the same?

I don’t see anywhere that says differently.  If you have read and are quite familiar, then maybe you can help me with my misunderstanding, if in fact I have one, regarding scripture on this.  Where things get interesting is in the eschatology found in revelation but there is much debate on the ideas found there and the meaning of language referring to “lake of fire” etc.

Sheol is not translated as life so when you use the word afterlife when referring to sheol it is not according to the translation of the word.  

The idea that “believers” go directly to heaven and “unbelievers” go directly to hell is not supported in scripture.  However, there is evidence of the destruction of Satan and the wicked in scripture.  I’m not providing details (scriptural reference), but I could.

I never said you had a misunderstanding. I was just trying to clarify your position.

Quote:Thats not exactly how I interpret what I have read and what I know about scripture. Genesis is generally accepted to be written by Moses. It is also excepted that it was written in his own words. The bible is not infallible in that it has discrepancies within it because of how it was written (human writing). There are places within the Bible where it references God saying “write this down” and then what follows is generally accepted as the words of God. Since Moses was not alive during the story of creation it is believed that the story of creation was handed down through the generations starting with Adam and Eve and so on. The idea of a man named Abraham is also found in the belief and writings of the Muslim faith. The fact that the story of creation is found in many different ancient writings of varied cultures helps validate the story of Babel and the dispersion.

So, if you interpret the Bible one way, and other theists interpret it another (over 30K Christian sects, and counting...), how do you know yours is the correct interpretation, and others that interpreted differently, got it wrong?

It the Bible is not infallible, then how do you know any of it is correct? How do you know you understand the correct parts, and other misunderstand them?