(December 18, 2019 at 7:16 pm)maxolla Wrote:

(December 18, 2019 at 6:15 pm)Simon Moon Wrote: I never said you had a misunderstanding. I was just trying to clarify your position.


So, if you interpret the Bible one way, and other theists interpret it another (over 30K Christian sects, and counting...), how do you know yours is the correct interpretation, and others that interpreted differently, got it wrong?

It the Bible is not infallible, then how do you know any of it is correct? How do you know you understand the correct parts, and other misunderstand them?

In short.  We as human beings see the world in different ways.  We interpret what we perceive in varied ways and even our language is imperfect in totally accurate communication.  I would say that Biblical text just as any writing can be interpreted along many different lines of thought.  If we both read the same novel you may come up with a very different interpretation of the text than I would based on your experience and the fact that all human being are unique from one another.

I except that I am wrong and have misunderstandings.  That’s why I am interested in learning from other peoples perspectives when they will allow understanding.  I would not say that I am typical in theist circles.  It's prefer to understand than be understood.  This is why I don’t particularly care whether or not my conclusions are perceived as right I would prefer to be right.

Lastly, Ipse dixit doesn’t cut it.  Just because most of the Christian world believes in hell, I have yet to have someone support is properly with scriptural proof.

You would say the same to me regarding the existence of God.  However, I’m not trying to prove his existence to you.  I’m here to know more about your why.

The part I bolded is what is actually important to me in these types of discussions, though.

One of my main motivations in life, is to have as many true beliefs as possible, and eliminate as many false beliefs as possible. I want my internal model of the world to map as closely as possible to the actual world.

The primary reasons why I have these discussions, is for people that have different beliefs than I have, to tell me what they are, and most importantly, tell me WHY they believe them. The why is actually the important part.

If theists god beliefs are supported with: demonstrable and falsifiable evidence, and valid and sound logic, then I want to know about it. Without meeting the above criteria, what should be my epistemological warrant to believe theist's claims are true?

I am open to be convinced that a god exists, as long as theists are able to meet their burden of proof. Fallacious arguments, like: teleological, Kalam cosmological, ontological, and transcendental arguments, will not cut it. Appeals to old texts, personal feelings of god encounters, 'miracle' healings, etc, etc, are even worse evidence.

Maxolla, does your god answer prayers?

(December 18, 2019 at 5:51 pm)maxolla Wrote: I don’t have anything to argue with regarding the information found at the link you provided.  I don’t contend that God has never destroyed and that he will never destroy.

So it/god has not been maligned. Got it.

(December 18, 2019 at 7:16 pm)maxolla Wrote: Just because most of the Christian world believes in hell, I have yet to have someone support is properly with scriptural proof.

Mark 9:47–48. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, where the worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.

Revelation 14:11. And the smoke of their torment goes up for ever and ever; and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.

Matthew 25:46. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into life eternal.

Matthew 24:41. Human beings who reject Christ will join Satan and his fallen angels in this infernal place of suffering.

That took all of two minutes to find, and there's more, lots more.

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death   Revelation 21:8

(December 18, 2019 at 7:53 pm)Simon Moon Wrote:

(December 18, 2019 at 7:16 pm)maxolla Wrote: In short.  We as human beings see the world in different ways.  We interpret what we perceive in varied ways and even our language is imperfect in totally accurate communication.  I would say that Biblical text just as any writing can be interpreted along many different lines of thought.  If we both read the same novel you may come up with a very different interpretation of the text than I would based on your experience and the fact that all human being are unique from one another.

I except that I am wrong and have misunderstandings.  That’s why I am interested in learning from other peoples perspectives when they will allow understanding.  I would not say that I am typical in theist circles.  It's prefer to understand than be understood.  This is why I don’t particularly care whether or not my conclusions are perceived as right I would prefer to be right.

Lastly, Ipse dixit doesn’t cut it.  Just because most of the Christian world believes in hell, I have yet to have someone support is properly with scriptural proof.

You would say the same to me regarding the existence of God.  However, I’m not trying to prove his existence to you.  I’m here to know more about your why.

The part I bolded is what is actually important to me in these types of discussions, though.

One of my main motivations in life, is to have as many true beliefs as possible, and eliminate as many false beliefs as possible. I want my internal model of the world to map as closely as possible to the actual world.

The primary reasons why I have these discussions, is for people that have different beliefs than I have, to tell me what they are, and most importantly, tell me WHY they believe them. The why is actually the important part.

If theists god beliefs are supported with: demonstrable and falsifiable evidence, and valid and sound logic, then I want to know about it. Without meeting the above criteria, what should be my epistemological warrant to believe theist's claims are true?

I am open to be convinced that a god exists, as long as theists are able to meet their burden of proof. Fallacious arguments, like: teleological, Kalam cosmological, ontological, and transcendental arguments, will not cut it. Appeals to old texts, personal feelings of god encounters, 'miracle' healings, etc, etc, are even worse evidence.

So, I think there is some agreement on why we seek to communicate with other people regarding their beliefs. I would say that more questions are necessary.

What would convince you with out a shadow of a doubt that God does exist? What specifically would be necessary for that belief to become absolutely truth for you?

---

(December 18, 2019 at 10:00 pm)Succubus Wrote:

(December 18, 2019 at 7:16 pm)maxolla Wrote: Just because most of the Christian world believes in hell, I have yet to have someone support is properly with scriptural proof.

Mark 9:47–48. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, where the worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.

The word for hell in Mark 9:47-48 is “Gehenna” which is a place specifically translated as “valley of Hinnom” (see below).
Hinnom, south of Jerusalem, once celebrated for the horrid worship of Moloch, and afterwards polluted with every species of filth, as well as the carcasses of animals, and dead bodies of malefactors; to consume which, in order to avert the pestilence which such a mass of corruption would occasion, constant fires were kept burning.

Gehenna is used throughout the new testament and has been wrongly, I believe translated as hell. I contend that the doctrine of hell is ancient pagan superstition superimposed on Christian teaching of death.

Revelation 14:11. And the smoke of their torment goes up for ever and ever; and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.

Not sure of the relevance of this text in Revelation other than the reference to the destruction of the wicked.

Matthew 25:46. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into life eternal.

"Everlasting" meaning final and irreversible.

Matthew 24:41. Human beings who reject Christ will join Satan and his fallen angels in this infernal place of suffering.

This is an incorrect quote. Matt: 24:41 says "Two women will be grinding ca at the mill; one will be taken and one left"

That took all of two minutes to find, and there's more, lots more.

I have never claimed that eschatology precludes the destruction of the wicked at the end of the age. I have said that I do not believe scripture teaches of a place called hell where the wicked are sent immediately at death to be tortured by burning for eternity.
I actually agree with your assessment as an atheist. When you finally die you will quite possibly be dead for all eternity. You will not be in some eternal flame languishing for all eternity.

(December 18, 2019 at 10:30 pm)maxolla Wrote:

(December 18, 2019 at 7:53 pm)Simon Moon Wrote: The part I bolded is what is actually important to me in these types of discussions, though.

One of my main motivations in life, is to have as many true beliefs as possible, and eliminate as many false beliefs as possible. I want my internal model of the world to map as closely as possible to the actual world.

The primary reasons why I have these discussions, is for people that have different beliefs than I have, to tell me what they are, and most importantly, tell me WHY they believe them. The why is actually the important part.

If theists god beliefs are supported with: demonstrable and falsifiable evidence, and valid and sound logic, then I want to know about it. Without meeting the above criteria, what should be my epistemological warrant to believe theist's claims are true?

I am open to be convinced that a god exists, as long as theists are able to meet their burden of proof. Fallacious arguments, like: teleological, Kalam cosmological, ontological, and transcendental arguments, will not cut it. Appeals to old texts, personal feelings of god encounters, 'miracle' healings, etc, etc, are even worse evidence.

So, I think there is some agreement on why we seek to communicate with other people regarding their beliefs.  I would say that more questions are necessary.  

What would convince you with out a shadow of a doubt that God does exist?  What specifically would be necessary for that belief to become absolutely truth for you?

---

(December 18, 2019 at 10:00 pm)Succubus Wrote: Mark 9:47–48.  It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, where the worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.

The word for hell in Mark 9:47-48 is “Gehenna”  which is a place specifically translated as “valley of Hinnom” (see below).
Hinnom, south of Jerusalem, once celebrated for the horrid worship of Moloch, and afterwards polluted with every species of filth, as well as the carcasses of animals, and dead bodies of malefactors; to consume which, in order to avert the pestilence which such a mass of corruption would occasion, constant fires were kept burning.

Gehenna is used throughout the new testament and has been wrongly, I believe translated as hell.  I contend that the doctrine of hell is ancient pagan superstition superimposed on Christian teaching of death.

Revelation 14:11. And the smoke of their torment goes up for ever and ever; and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.

Not sure of the relevance of this text in Revelation other than the reference to the destruction of the wicked.

Matthew 25:46. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into life eternal.

"Everlasting" meaning final and irreversible.

Matthew 24:41. Human beings who reject Christ will join Satan and his fallen angels in this infernal place of suffering.

This is an incorrect quote.  Matt: 24:41 says "Two women will be grinding ca  at the mill; one will be taken and one left"

That took all of two minutes to find, and there's more, lots more.

I have never claimed that eschatology precludes the destruction of the wicked at the end of the age.  I have said that I do not believe scripture teaches of a place called hell where the wicked are sent immediately at death to be tortured by burning for eternity.
I actually agree with your assessment as an atheist.  When you finally die you will quite possibly be dead for all eternity.  You will not be in some eternal flame languishing for all eternity.

In the Gospel of Matthew, Jesus goes on at some length about people being cast into an eternal, unquenchable fire (Gehenna) and what people can can expect when they go there.  Pretty gruesome.  It seems unlikley that a fire which 'can destroy both body and soul' is meant as anything other then an eternal punishment.

It may not mean 'Hell' precisely, but it'll do.

Boru

(December 18, 2019 at 7:25 pm)maxolla Wrote:

(December 18, 2019 at 6:31 pm)Abaddon_ire Wrote: No it fucking is not accepted that the genesis account was written by Moses in his own words. Moses cannot be demonstrated to have existed in the first place.

If you are going to argue any position at least do it honestly.

Ipuwer Papyrus would seem to disagree.   https://beginningandend.com/did-the-exod...he-exodus/

Wrong. The Ipuwer makes no mention of jews, jewish slaves, Moses or any part of the Exodus account. In fact it refers to an influx not an exodus.

And then you cite a fundamentalist crank site as support.

Again I ask, do you want to debate honestly or dishonestly?

Because attempting to shoehorn unrelated material into bible based faith sure seems to provide an answer to that question. What is your answer?

(December 19, 2019 at 6:55 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:

(December 18, 2019 at 10:30 pm)maxolla Wrote: So, I think there is some agreement on why we seek to communicate with other people regarding their beliefs.  I would say that more questions are necessary.  

What would convince you with out a shadow of a doubt that God does exist?  What specifically would be necessary for that belief to become absolutely truth for you?

---

I have never claimed that eschatology precludes the destruction of the wicked at the end of the age.  I have said that I do not believe scripture teaches of a place called hell where the wicked are sent immediately at death to be tortured by burning for eternity.
I actually agree with your assessment as an atheist.  When you finally die you will quite possibly be dead for all eternity.  You will not be in some eternal flame languishing for all eternity.

In the Gospel of Matthew, Jesus goes on at some length about people being cast into an eternal, unquenchable fire (Gehenna) and what people can can expect when they go there.  Pretty gruesome.  It seems unlikley that a fire which 'can destroy both body and soul' is meant as anything other then an eternal punishment.

It may not mean 'Hell' precisely, but it'll do.

Boru

The fact that it "seems unlikely" to you may well have to do with the fact that you read the Bible after centuries of interpretation. The English translations are always interpretations, and the Greek may not be as decisive. The earliest Christians and readers of Matthew disagreed on whether hellish punishment would be eternal, or more like some Jewish ideas of Sheol as something like Purgatory -- temporary purgation required to rejoin a pure God. The idea of eternal punishment was decided largely by Augustine. 

How people read the passage depends mostly on how they translate the Greek word aionios. It does mean something like the English word "eternal," but it may not mean "everlasting." Eternity in Greek thought is often said to be outside of time, so there is still disagreement among Christians as to whether damnation is everlasting or whether the existence of hell is an eternal truth derived from God's eternal law, but not everlastingly home to sinners. 

Blake thought that the fires last forever, but that no one stays in them forever -- a possible reading. Oxford mathematician Charles Dodgson, whose Greek was better than yours or mine, devoted much of his later years to discussion of aionios and, more importantly, whether everlasting punishment was logically consistent with the rest of what Christians hold to be true. In private letters he let it be known that he could not believe in everlasting punishment.

Recently David Bentley Hart, whose Greek and knowledge of Christian thought is better than yours or mine or Dodgson's, has published a book on why everlasting punishment in hell is inconsistent with Christian doctrine. I'm sure he won't convince the Pope, but it shows that intelligent people may disagree.

Maxolla, does your god answer prayers?