(May 8, 2020 at 11:59 pm)WinterHold Wrote: Humans are the worst animals on this planet, yet some of them -like you- are mad about a hell that will come after this life.

what about sheep that muslims slaughter on eid al-adha? who ordered them to do this brutal act? allah did it. 

(May 9, 2020 at 5:12 pm)Agnostico Wrote: A nice brief 3 minute explanation

lol, three major world systems and they get what, one minute each? Such bullshit simplistic thinking.

(May 9, 2020 at 2:04 am)Agnostico Wrote:

(May 7, 2020 at 4:38 pm)masoni Wrote: More murders have been committed in the holy name of God than for any other reason. (Well, children do tend to emulate their parents, so I guess that’s not too surprising.) God has variously commanded death to those who believe differently, (Exodus 22:19) those who have sex outside of marriage, (Leviticus 20:10/Leviticus 21:9) those who work on the Sabbath, (Exodus 31:12-15) homosexuals, (Romans 1:24-32) people who curse their parents, (Leviticus 20:9) and children who make fun of men who require Rogaine. (2 Kings 2:23-24) And that’s just for starters.

I thought the title was a bit strange. How can u accuse God of mass murder if u don't believe he exists. LoL
I have seen atheists get angry at God for things that he has done. Its like they do believe in God but aren't happy with him so they became atheists, LoL

But i understand what you are saying and agree it has been a major contributor to many killings.

But there is one reason that has been the source of more killings than God or anything else... 
Resources. Land, money, oil, gold, etc... Resources

again, i mean the god of these ancient books.
that doesn't mean i believe in god, but it means i'm trying to clarify the bloody ideas that the ancients wrote and put in useless books, full of violence, brutality and barbarism.

(May 9, 2020 at 5:25 pm)Gawdzilla Sama Wrote:

(May 9, 2020 at 5:12 pm)Agnostico Wrote: A nice brief 3 minute explanation

lol, three major world systems and they get what, one minute each? Such bullshit simplistic thinking.

To be expected.  Consider the source.  

One step beyond puppets and crayons.

(May 9, 2020 at 4:58 pm)masoni Wrote: in our age, we have Fundamental Christians who firmly believe that before the end of the world occurs, they will be raptured up into the clouds to be reunited with jesus in heaven and thus, spared the discomfort of torture, ravenous locusts, plagues and the incineration of large portions of the earth. on the other hand, you have certain right-wing, fundamental islamics who are brought up believing that those who die while defending god’s edicts will be rewarded with an indescribable paradise which includes more willing virgins than currently live upon our planet. and both these groups are more than willing to bring doom down on the rest of us poor suckers just so they can enjoy their promised rewards!

That's true. In our age, those two groups exist.

The point I've been making is that lots of other religious groups exist as well.

You are a cafeteria atheist, because you pick out only the two groups you dislike and pretend that's all there is to religion.

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(May 9, 2020 at 5:02 pm)Agnostico Wrote: Thats not my understanding of Marx's interpretation. When i say the state that is the same thing as saying the government

I mean it that way too: the state = the government.

And of course in our time we think of the government as being over and above the people, not responsive to our needs. But in socialism the government is the people, working for the people. The people own the electric company, the state is representatives of the people who manage the company. 

Insofar as government manages public institutions NOT for the good of the people (i.e. for the good of someone else), it isn't socialist.

Quote:The term democratic doesn't refer to the economical structure. It's a reference to the system used to elect a leader. Tyranny would be the opposite or dictatorship

That's true. Socialism is about economic issues, and democracy is about decision-making.

But in socialist institutions, decisions are made democratically. 

So for example if the electric company is socialist, our representatives manage it and if we don't like their management we can vote them out. On a more local scale, the public schools are socialist and we elect the people on the school board. 

If the electric company is privatized and operated primarily for the profits of the owners, the people can't vote to change the policies. If the schools are taken over by the Bill Gates Foundation or something, then Bill Gates decides the curriculum and we can't vote him out. 

The ideological movement in the US to privatize everything is a movement toward tyranny. It is creeping fascism, because it puts power into the hands of government/industry alliances, and takes it away from voters.

(May 7, 2020 at 4:47 pm)masoni Wrote:

(May 7, 2020 at 4:43 pm)The Valkyrie Wrote: Plenty have, that is true.

he says,you shall not kill,but he kills.
he contradicts himself

No, he says that you shall not commit murder. God has made it very clear that the penalty for sin is death, therefor transgressing a law punishable by death is not murder.

Quote:That's a good point. Any kind of dissent is either taken to the gulag or disappears

That's not socialism 

Quote:I recently found myself asking what the difference is between the communist and socialist economic structures

First what kind of socialism or communism are we talking about? But overall all the biggest difference is Socialism tends toward maintaining capitalist structures while simply democratizing it .Socialist don't tend to believe in revolutionary change instead opting to integrate into the preexisting system.Oh and socialist still accept class and hierarchy though they make moves to minimize it  .Communism by contrast argues for a ceasing (unless your a pacifist ) means of production through revolution and then Communism can really go many routes it can go the authoritarian route like Sovietism or it can go a Libertarian route of were all business become worker communes independent of the government practicing workplace democracy and competing in a market system or some variation between the two  

Quote:In a capitalist society the big money industries are owned by private entities

Depends on the form of capitalist .State capitalism is a thing.

Quote:In a socialist society the big money industries are owned by the state

Depending on the kind of socialism . Anarcho Socialism exists 

Quote:Communism is a Marx concept of a utopia. It says that the public have equal shares in companies whose profits are equally divided

No it isn't. Marx made it clear not everyone would the same amount nor could they make the same amount .

Quote:Eg. A company has 100 employees. They all have an equal share in the company and earn an equal slice of the profit. 

This isn't what Marx believed  

Quote:Weather or not it could ever work is an interesting discussion

It can't which is why Marx didn't believe it 

Quote:Then there is fascism. Its sits on the right hand side of the political spectrum which i don't really understand why
It's economical structure is the same as socialism with the state owning the big industries. So is it a form of socialism
I heard someone say "socialism is when the state dominates industry and Fascism is when industry dominates the state"
I don't really see much ideological differences either, both are very nationalist. Maybe someone here can better explain the differences between fascism and socialism

Communism is the opposite of nationalist it's globalist . Fascist countries had private ownership .Fascism is pro class and hierarchy Communism is classless . Fascism is against organized labourer. Fascism is always authoritarian while Communism aims for ultimately anarchist system . Fascism always has an underlining racialism to it Communism argues race is a false hierarchy (though Communist countries sure as hell didn't practice this) 

Quote:These are very basic definitions as the subject gets really complex

You were not even close 

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(May 9, 2020 at 5:56 pm)Huggy Bear Wrote:

(May 7, 2020 at 4:47 pm)masoni Wrote: he says,you shall not kill,but he kills.
he contradicts himself

No, he says that you shall not commit murder. God has made it very clear that the penalty for sin is death, therefor transgressing a law punishable by death is not murder.

If  a dictator kills you fo an unjust law it's still murder

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(May 9, 2020 at 5:38 pm)Belacqua Wrote:

(May 9, 2020 at 4:58 pm)masoni Wrote: in our age, we have Fundamental Christians who firmly believe that before the end of the world occurs, they will be raptured up into the clouds to be reunited with jesus in heaven and thus, spared the discomfort of torture, ravenous locusts, plagues and the incineration of large portions of the earth. on the other hand, you have certain right-wing, fundamental islamics who are brought up believing that those who die while defending god’s edicts will be rewarded with an indescribable paradise which includes more willing virgins than currently live upon our planet. and both these groups are more than willing to bring doom down on the rest of us poor suckers just so they can enjoy their promised rewards!

That's true. In our age, those two groups exist.

The point I've been making is that lots of other religious groups exist as well.

You are a cafeteria atheist, because you pick out only the two groups you dislike and pretend that's all there is to religion.

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(May 9, 2020 at 5:02 pm)Agnostico Wrote: Thats not my understanding of Marx's interpretation. When i say the state that is the same thing as saying the government

I mean it that way too: the state = the government.

And of course in our time we think of the government as being over and above the people, not responsive to our needs. But in socialism the government is the people, working for the people. The people own the electric company, the state is representatives of the people who manage the company. 

Insofar as government manages public institutions NOT for the good of the people (i.e. for the good of someone else), it isn't socialist.

Quote:The term democratic doesn't refer to the economical structure. It's a reference to the system used to elect a leader. Tyranny would be the opposite or dictatorship

That's true. Socialism is about economic issues, and democracy is about decision-making.

But in socialist institutions, decisions are made democratically. 

So for example if the electric company is socialist, our representatives manage it and if we don't like their management we can vote them out. On a more local scale, the public schools are socialist and we elect the people on the school board. 

If the electric company is privatized and operated primarily for the profits of the owners, the people can't vote to change the policies. If the schools are taken over by the Bill Gates Foundation or something, then Bill Gates decides the curriculum and we can't vote him out. 

The ideological movement in the US to privatize everything is a movement toward tyranny. It is creeping fascism, because it puts power into the hands of government/industry alliances, and takes it away from voters.

A lot of this we seem to agree on

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(May 9, 2020 at 5:12 pm)Agnostico Wrote: A nice brief 3 minute explanation

This video is laughably simplistic

(May 9, 2020 at 5:30 pm)masoni Wrote: again, i mean the god of these ancient books.
that doesn't mean i believe in god, but it means i'm trying to clarify the bloody ideas that the ancients wrote and put in useless books, full of violence, brutality and barbarism.

They're just as valid as current religious bullshit.

(May 9, 2020 at 5:13 pm)masoni Wrote:

(May 8, 2020 at 11:59 pm)WinterHold Wrote: The Quran never speaks about "cutting fingers as a sentence", or about "beheading" as a sentence; please use this Arabic to English Quran to bring the verse:

quran.ksu.edu.sa/

Otherwise, I advice you to educate yourself better about the book.

Hell is in the afterlife. But armies like the American army burn people to death in this life. While armies like the Egyptian army do worse:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/August_201...a_massacre


Humans are the worst animals on this planet, yet some of them -like you- are mad about a hell that will come after this life.

8:12
"I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off. "
finger tips mean our fingerprints in the verse talking about the resurrection. 

Here's another translation:
[8.12] When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.

how is something so simple so capable of creating so many translations?

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Nothing exists in Sura 8 that says so.
Neither such thing exists in Sura 12

But I think you are just copy-pasting from some propaganda site that doesn't even know what the Quran contains, but to give you the benefit of the doubt, I think I know where a similar verse is located:

Sura 47, The Quran:
https://quran.ksu.edu.sa/index.php?l=en#...rans=en_sh

Quote:( 4 )   So when you meet those who disbelieve [in battle], strike [their] necks until, when you have inflicted slaughter upon them, then secure their bonds, and either [confer] favor afterwards or ransom [them] until the war lays down its burdens. That [is the command]. And if Allah had willed, He could have taken vengeance upon them [Himself], but [He ordered armed struggle] to test some of you by means of others. And those who are killed in the cause of Allah - never will He waste their deeds.

You are bringing me a war verse, and apply it to peace times?

(May 9, 2020 at 2:34 pm)Brian37 Wrote:

(May 9, 2020 at 11:09 am)Gawdzilla Sama Wrote: He was a seminary student at one point. And after Operation Barbarossa kicked off in 1941 he ordered the churches reopened and the icons restored to their traditional places. He was soft on religion.

Let me add, Communism isn't about oppressing religion, but any kind of dissent. There are Christian Churches in Russia, and even China, and Cuba has tons of Catholic Churches.

As long as you tow the party line in any of those states, odds are they will leave you alone. 

As an atheist, being as vocal as I am about government, I would be quickly arrested or murdered by those states if I lived in any of them.

Communism doesn't say any such thing . Authoritarianism yes. But Communism isn't inherently Authoritarian .