Though I joke around a lot I’m actually serious about this. In my intro thread titled “Deconverted by theology” I explained how after a number of years of studying theology and church history I had to acknowledge the facts that I found which, mind you, were not the one’s I had originally set out to find ( I thought that reading theology would bring me closer to God). It was the start of my deconversion. I’m still having a lot of problems dealing with the experiential bit. I’m assuming that there are fully deconverted individuals on this forum who have been where I am now and have had to deal with the experiential shit. Any advice? Let me say again that I am serious about this. I am not trolling or doing any other bullshit. I have better things to do with my time. What follows is something I wrote to someone else somewhere else about the subject, but I thought it might be useful to seek input here on this forum:


The experiential part of belief can be (for some people like me) such a powerful thing that one can have a deep knowing that these supernatural things exist. This deep knowing becomes the foundation for your belief structure. It starts a logical, but provably incorrect, notion that if God is real then this bit of doctrine must also be true. When faced with things that are provably wrong or you don't understand, then begins the process of counting the hits and explaining away the misses.

The counting and explaining away is very easy to generalize. You can use it for questions about the scripture, questions about doctrine, answered and unanswered prayer. The experiential part of Christianity can be so powerful that it glosses over everything else and clouds your vision. The natural conclusion for many is that if something is this powerful then it proves that the god exists. This is not a logical conclusion but one that I have admittedly had for over 30 years. After years of reading church history books and theology books I have had to face the fact that Christian theology (i.e. the interpretation of the Bible) is a horrible mess that has been concocted over the centuries. The Bible, supposedly god's very words, is in fact not the very words of god but something concocted and conglomerated over the centuries. The evidence speaks for itself on these matters.

As for the experiential bit, science and psychology are things that can explain the phenomenas in a manner that uses the scientific method, is provable and is reproducible. People tell you to believe by faith, In the next breath they tell you that the deceiver is out there waiting to deceive you. If both conditions are true, who's to know who is deceiving you? If you stick to what is provable then anyone can review the facts pick them apart and find the same conclusion. faith is a deceptive thing.


For those who never have experienced the experiential part of any religion it is easy for you criticize or mock. Please don’t do this. I look forward to any useful response. I’m sorry my post was so long

No need to mock. It's a fairly decent assessment of the situation. It actually isn't so easy to mock peoples experiences by the way. There's always a little pang of guilt to overcome. I empathize with anyone having de-conversion issues.

(October 31, 2011 at 12:26 pm)Rhythm Wrote: No need to mock. It's a fairly decent assessment of the situation. It actually isn't so easy to mock peoples experiences by the way. There's always a little pang of guilt to overcome. I empathize with anyone having de-conversion issues.

Thanks for the sympathy. Oddly I find I am more of a Christian in the morning before caffeine has activated the rest of my brain cells (I'm not a morning person). By afternoon my brain is in full gear and so is my Atheism. At night before right before I go to sleep my mind sometimes still wanders off again. Ugh!

I've never been religious, so I'd had nothing to de-convert from. But I can understand.

My Aunt and cousin are currently losing their faith it seems. They used to go to church regularly but have stopped. They are in the middle of de-converting themselves. Now, instead of faith, prayer and attending church, they visit natural history museums and science museums. Stopped wearing that blasted crucifix.
My uncle has been wavering a bit, but if he too de-converts, my family will only have one theist left in it. My nan.
For me, as I aged I obtained knowledge about religion over time. The more I learnt, the more I doubted. Too much wishful thinking and story telling, no shred of evidence to back any of it up. Lacked many details. Not to mention no explanatory power and that it's not falsifiable.
Religion excluded itself out of consideration.

Quote:In my intro thread titled “Deconverted by theology” I explained how after a number of years of studying theology and church history I had to acknowledge the facts that I found which, mind you, were not the one’s I had originally set out to find ( I thought that reading theology would bring me closer to God)

Read Bart Ehrman's "Jesus Interrupted" and you'll find out that he went through the very same process.

In fact, we get a lot of people who renounce religion after they sit down to read that vile, worthless, book.

(October 31, 2011 at 12:47 pm)Minimalist Wrote:

Quote:In my intro thread titled “Deconverted by theology” I explained how after a number of years of studying theology and church history I had to acknowledge the facts that I found which, mind you, were not the one’s I had originally set out to find ( I thought that reading theology would bring me closer to God)

Read Bart Ehrman's "Jesus Interrupted" and you'll find out that he went through the very same process.

In fact, we get a lot of people who renounce religion after they sit down to read that vile, worthless, book.

I just looked up the book on Amazon. It looks like the stuff I have already read about. I think what will help me is any Psychology/scientific information on experiential things.

For example in the late 80 -early 90's someone had found "the God gene". supposedly those with the gene get more euphoria from religious experiences. If this is so then it would explain a lot. I must have this gene. I don't know any more about the subject or even it the study was legitimate. This would be nice to know if anyone has any legit information. For years I had been pondering the God gene, if it does indeed exist. I have wondered what evolutionary purpose it might serve i.e. how it could aid survival for those who posses it for it appears (as per the study) as if the gene is not an abnormality or a defect. I have some plausible theories on the topic but nothing more. I digress.

Anyway, can anyone provide links to any psychological information (articles, papers videos etc) regarding the psychological explanations of faith. Information on religious pluralism would also be useful. it would help me get a bigger picture of religion in general.

Hey, I am a deconverted christian, and also a mental health counselor. I'm here to help you!

You, like so many, are a victim of indoctrination. Firstly, ask yourself why you don't have these feelings about the Hindu gods. You weren't indoctrinated into Hindu beliefs. The human psyche, while powerful is also very fragile. You have an injured psyche and it needs to heal! If I am understanding you correctly, your intellect and logic are telling you that god/religion is bullshit, but you find yourself questioning it, and second guessing yourself. This is normal.

People whom have experienced years of incarceration report that even 2 years of freedom they find it difficult to get rid of old habits they formed in prison. The experiential phenomena is explainable in this way. I hope you don't get offended when I say this, but it must be said: It's a psychological delusion.

You've experienced these mind-tricks for so long that it is hard for you to recognize when you're even having one. You're a victim. Remember that! Every time you have these feelings remember that you didn't choose to have your brain programmed to create delusions during times when your intellect is compromised by fatigue or stress. I would be glad to help you work through these issues if you'd like. I am not a doctor, but I am an excellent listener and a very practical, rational person.

In the meantime:

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=psyc...i=scholart

Yeah, I would find it very easy to mock someone for having a religion or having been religious... I came fresh from the womb with no God in mind and a burning bible in the my hand.

But, since you asked nicely, I won't mock

I hope you don't have these issues for long... I imagine that is can't be that good for ones self-worth...

Thank you for your kind responses and for taking me seriously.

---

(October 31, 2011 at 4:27 pm)aleialoura Wrote: Hey, I am a deconverted christian, and also a mental health counselor. I'm here to help you!

You, like so many, are a victim of indoctrination. Firstly, ask yourself why you don't have these feelings about the Hindu gods. You weren't indoctrinated into Hindu beliefs. The human psyche, while powerful is also very fragile. You have an injured psyche and it needs to heal! If I am understanding you correctly, your intellect and logic are telling you that god/religion is bullshit, but you find yourself questioning it, and second guessing yourself. This is normal.

People whom have experienced years of incarceration report that even 2 years of freedom they find it difficult to get rid of old habits they formed in prison. The experiential phenomena is explainable in this way. I hope you don't get offended when I say this, but it must be said: It's a psychological delusion.

You've experienced these mind-tricks for so long that it is hard for you to recognize when you're even having one. You're a victim. Remember that! Every time you have these feelings remember that you didn't choose to have your brain programmed to create delusions during times when your intellect is compromised by fatigue or stress. I would be glad to help you work through these issues if you'd like. I am not a doctor, but I am an excellent listener and a very practical, rational person.

In the meantime:

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=psyc...i=scholart

Looks like I will be talking with you soon. Oddly I did choose to be indoctrinated. I became a convert at 12 years of age. Before that I don't remember a time when I didn't believe in spiritual things. My belief happened in the absence of anything to explain my experiences. My folks were Unitarian Universalists who were and still are rather fuzzy headed. When someone witnessed to me about Christianity then came an "explanation". I'm actually not crazy. Slightly autistic but not crazy. The "explanation" given to me by the Christian Fundamentalists (cf) appeared to be plausible (but then again I was 12.)

My first 5 years was dedicated to learning the religion and surviving as a teenager. In college I tried to fit in with a bunch of mindless idiots. I had to hide a lot of my skepticism in order to be accepted. I don't think anyone saw me as a good Christian I had too many questions and I had a nasty habit of telling people to fuck off (not in so unelegant of words mind you) when they tried to feed me too much bullshit. Careers, children, and general numbness took up the time after that. During that time there was enough half way decent community and psychology to make the religion doable.

About 10 years ago I became board with Christianity. I had learned everything there was to learn in church. At first I was too busy with life to have the time to look into the theology behind cf (this theology is stuff they don't teach in church because they think that people are too stupid to understand it. In reality if they were to teach it a lot more people would be atheists because the theology is easily provable as bullshit). The process of unindoctrination has as of yet taken about 5 years and a stack of very thick books. Though 3 years ago I started reading the really heavy stuff. I like to be through about things. To see a thing through many different perspectives.

I suppose I ought to be embarrassed about this, but this is life. there's good and there's bad to things. I have made peace with it.

I guess I'm kind of lucky in that I never really "experienced" God, so not only was that part of the reason I ended up becoming an atheist, but I didn't have any problems with the idea that I once felt God, so I knew he was real. I did believe he was real, but after looking at things critically I realized I was just fooling myself. Of course, I was raised Catholic instead of in one of the more charismatic churches where you're trained to have a "personal relationship with God." In the Catholic church, you're taught to more or less go through the priest to get to God.