(June 13, 2009 at 6:14 pm)bozo Wrote:

(June 13, 2009 at 6:01 pm)Kyuuketsuki Wrote: An admission therefore that you cannot deal with the point raised ... suits me!

You are so predictable and borish.

The word is "boorish" and I just love the fact that you are unable to deal with the point raised.

Kyu

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(June 14, 2009 at 1:25 am)Samson Wrote: So it's ok for us to put down an "Animal" when it gets out of control, but we can't put down a human that has became an animal when they do..........Yeah, makes perfect sense... Bottom line is, a human that has became a savage beast (Animal) has lost their right to be a human in society. They have lost their humanity, and should be treated as an animal.

Er ... where did I something that supported the view you appear to be attacking?

Kyu

(June 14, 2009 at 4:28 am)Kyuuketsuki Wrote:

(June 13, 2009 at 6:14 pm)bozo Wrote:

(June 13, 2009 at 6:01 pm)Kyuuketsuki Wrote: An admission therefore that you cannot deal with the point raised ... suits me!

You are so predictable and borish.

The word is "boorish" and I just love the fact that you are unable to deal with the point raised.

Kyu

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(June 14, 2009 at 1:25 am)Samson Wrote: So it's ok for us to put down an "Animal" when it gets out of control, but we can't put down a human that has became an animal when they do..........Yeah, makes perfect sense... Bottom line is, a human that has became a savage beast (Animal) has lost their right to be a human in society. They have lost their humanity, and should be treated as an animal.

Er ... where did I something that supported the view you appear to be attacking?

Kyu

Having said I wouldn't continue, you force me into it. I dealt with red man killing red man ( as per your assertion ) and claim that is totally different to what happened to the indigenous tribes at the hands of the whites. Got it now?

(June 14, 2009 at 1:25 am)Samson Wrote: Kyu and EvF...

So it's ok for us to put down an "Animal" when it gets out of control, but we can't put down a human that has became an animal when they do..........Yeah, makes perfect sense... Bottom line is, a human that has became a savage beast (Animal) has lost their right to be a human in society. They have lost their humanity, and should be treated as an animal.

Yes Kyu, I do get your point on the flaws of humanity and putting someone's life in stupid peoples hands.

As far as a "blood-lust" like Kyu so elegantly put it, you are damn right..Someone rapes or kills my family they will die if someone does not get to them first. Call it revenge, vengeance, punishment, I could give a rats ass how it's defined... You hurt my family, you will be hurt back. Hey, and I still stand by my statements above. If the people feel that I have became an animal for killing a man that raped or killed my daughters or wife, then so be it, I would die for my family, simple as that.

Well as I said I would only be "for" TDP if it could be simply a 'putting down' like of a rabid dog... - as you suggest.

For sake of argument let's say we hypothetically really do know that someone is guilty...I would see no reason to go further than 'putthing them down like a rabid dog' - Ideally speaking I see no reason to add suffering, it would only be one's own vengeance 'attempting' to satisfy itself, very destructive - I see no good that can come of it. And since I don't believe in 'Free-Will' I don't find it to be a good approach at all. Merely 'disposing of' is the furthest I world go. And like I said - I think we'd somehow have to 'know' - and how can we? I think the risk of killing innocent people is too great to have it as a law...I'd rather guilty people go than innocent people be executed. So that's why I wouldn't even go with the 'putting them down' thing - because as a law the risk is too great. And how you would react if a family member dies can be very different to how you should react...

Consider the following hypothetical scenario for instance: What if you kill someone for killing a family member but it turns out you'd got the wrong person and you killed someone innocent - just as the real killer did your family member. Since if they had simply been arrested and/or questioned and then it was realized that it wasn't them - then police could search for the real killer rather than having someone else innocent die at your hands. From the family of this innocent victim's perspective you could seem just as bad to them as the killer of your family member does to you...they may not even sympathize because they might think you're 'just as bad' because you 'stooped down' to the level of the killer of your family member. And if they somehow can see it from your perspective a bit - I bet they'd still be very angry and upset (assuming they loved their family member) - it's hardly going to seem different to them if different at all, I think.

What do you think of this hypothetical scenario?

I think what would happen in practice--because of how much you love your family--can be very different to what should be so - in principle.

EvF

(June 14, 2009 at 1:25 am)Samson Wrote: Kyu and EvF...

So it's ok for us to put down an "Animal" when it gets out of control, but we can't put down a human that has became an animal when they do..........Yeah, makes perfect sense... Bottom line is, a human that has became a savage beast (Animal) has lost their right to be a human in society. They have lost their humanity, and should be treated as an animal.

Yes Kyu, I do get your point on the flaws of humanity and putting someone's life in stupid peoples hands.

As far as a "blood-lust" like Kyu so elegantly put it, you are damn right..Someone rapes or kills my family they will die if someone does not get to them first. Call it revenge, vengeance, punishment, I could give a rats ass how it's defined... You hurt my family, you will be hurt back. Hey, and I still stand by my statements above. If the people feel that I have became an animal for killing a man that raped or killed my daughters or wife, then so be it, I would die for my family, simple as that.

It was I, not Kyu, who used the expression " blood-lust " and I don't shrink from it. You haven't actually replied on my point about innocent people being executed. Would you like to?

(June 14, 2009 at 6:45 am)bozo Wrote:

(June 14, 2009 at 4:28 am)Kyuuketsuki Wrote: The word is "boorish" and I just love the fact that you are unable to deal with the point raised.

Having said I wouldn't continue, you force me into it. I dealt with red man killing red man ( as per your assertion ) and claim that is totally different to what happened to the indigenous tribes at the hands of the whites. Got it now?

You didn't deal with the American Indians (that weren't at the time) killing the then indigenous inhabitants and justifying that it was somehow different to white men doing the same later. So no, not got it

Kyu

Quote:For sake of argument let's say we hypothetically really do know that someone is guilty...I would see no reason to go further than 'putthing them down like a rabid dog' - Ideally speaking I see no reason to add suffering, it would only be one's own vengeance 'attempting' to satisfy itself, very destructive - I see no good that can come of it. And since I don't believe in 'Free-Will' I don't find it to be a good approach at all. Merely 'disposing of' is the furthest I world go. And like I said - I think we'd somehow have to 'know' - and how can we? I think the risk of killing innocent people is too great to have it as a law...I'd rather guilty people go than innocent people be executed. So that's why I wouldn't even go with the 'putting them down' thing - because as a law the risk is too great. And how you would react if a family member dies can be very different to how you should react...

The old mentality of, "Rather see a thousand guilty be set free, than one innocent put away"...... I do agree with to "Some" extent.

However, if they have the person on video, DNA in the girl/boy, etc. etc. etc. then this is where I agree with the Death Penalty being in place. Simple as that, and to just simply say "Vengeance" is the only reason, you are completely wrong in that assumption. There is a form of mental justice to the victims family when the correct person is caught and put to death.

CA case 1993, man walks into a clothing store, has it locked up, rapes 3 of the women and kills all 5 that are inside. You ask the family members if it was just vengeance they felt when he was put to death a few years later.

Quote:Consider the following hypothetical scenario for instance: What if you kill someone for killing a family member but it turns out you'd got the wrong person and you killed someone innocent - just as the real killer did your family member. Since if they had simply been arrested and/or questioned and then it was realized that it wasn't them - then police could search for the real killer rather than having someone else innocent die at your hands. From the family of this innocent victim's perspective you could seem just as bad to them as the killer of your family member does to you...they may not even sympathize because they might think you're 'just as bad' because you 'stooped down' to the level of the killer of your family member. And if they somehow can see it from your perspective a bit - I bet they'd still be very angry and upset (assuming they loved their family member) - it's hardly going to seem different to them if different at all, I think.

If I made that bad of a mistake, then I would accept the punishment I received. Of course after jury trials, appeals etc. etc. etc.

And please save me the bullshit of "Stooping down" to the level of the killer by killing him. Unless I start raping him before or after, or take his money after shooting him in the head....Ummm, no, there is no stooping down to his level when his act is of such.

Quote:It was I, not Kyu, who used the expression " blood-lust " and I don't shrink from it. You haven't actually replied on my point about innocent people being executed. Would you like to?

Yeah, shit happens..... ... Just messing with you..

Read the above of what I wrote to EvF on this post and you'll get the idea....If not, I'll try and be more specific...Maybe, but I'm pretty cut and dry when it comes to the death penalty.... And hey, I'm as tree hugging liberal as the next, but the death penalty is truly my righty side, I guess....lol

(June 14, 2009 at 12:48 pm)Samson Wrote:

Quote:For sake of argument let's say we hypothetically really do know that someone is guilty...I would see no reason to go further than 'putthing them down like a rabid dog' - Ideally speaking I see no reason to add suffering, it would only be one's own vengeance 'attempting' to satisfy itself, very destructive - I see no good that can come of it. And since I don't believe in 'Free-Will' I don't find it to be a good approach at all. Merely 'disposing of' is the furthest I world go. And like I said - I think we'd somehow have to 'know' - and how can we? I think the risk of killing innocent people is too great to have it as a law...I'd rather guilty people go than innocent people be executed. So that's why I wouldn't even go with the 'putting them down' thing - because as a law the risk is too great. And how you would react if a family member dies can be very different to how you should react...

The old mentality of, "Rather see a thousand guilty be set free, than one innocent put away"...... I do agree with to "Some" extent.

However, if they have the person on video, DNA in the girl/boy, etc. etc. etc. then this is where I agree with the Death Penalty being in place. Simple as that, and to just simply say "Vengeance" is the only reason, you are completely wrong in that assumption. There is a form of mental justice to the victims family when the correct person is caught and put to death.

CA case 1993, man walks into a clothing store, has it locked up, rapes 3 of the women and kills all 5 that are inside. You ask the family members if it was just vengeance they felt when he was put to death a few years later.

Quote:Consider the following hypothetical scenario for instance: What if you kill someone for killing a family member but it turns out you'd got the wrong person and you killed someone innocent - just as the real killer did your family member. Since if they had simply been arrested and/or questioned and then it was realized that it wasn't them - then police could search for the real killer rather than having someone else innocent die at your hands. From the family of this innocent victim's perspective you could seem just as bad to them as the killer of your family member does to you...they may not even sympathize because they might think you're 'just as bad' because you 'stooped down' to the level of the killer of your family member. And if they somehow can see it from your perspective a bit - I bet they'd still be very angry and upset (assuming they loved their family member) - it's hardly going to seem different to them if different at all, I think.

If I made that bad of a mistake, then I would accept the punishment I received. Of course after jury trials, appeals etc. etc. etc.

And please save me the bullshit of "Stooping down" to the level of the killer by killing him. Unless I start raping him before or after, or take his money after shooting him in the head....Ummm, no, there is no stooping down to his level when his act is of such.

Quote:It was I, not Kyu, who used the expression " blood-lust " and I don't shrink from it. You haven't actually replied on my point about innocent people being executed. Would you like to?

Yeah, shit happens..... ... Just messing with you..

Read the above of what I wrote to EvF on this post and you'll get the idea....If not, I'll try and be more specific...Maybe, but I'm pretty cut and dry when it comes to the death penalty.... And hey, I'm as tree hugging liberal as the next, but the death penalty is truly my righty side, I guess....lol

OK so you would have the death penalty when it is " certain " that you've got the right murderer(s ).
Unfortunately, you know as well as I that such certainty cannot be guaranteed 100% of the time.....that is my principal reason for being against.
I think there can be not much worse in life than to find yourself banged up for a crime you didn't commit.
And when that crime is murder...........

(June 14, 2009 at 12:48 pm)Samson Wrote: CA case 1993, man walks into a clothing store, has it locked up, rapes 3 of the women and kills all 5 that are inside. You ask the family members if it was just vengeance they felt when he was put to death a few years later.

With DNA case it's different...Like I said if you absolutely "Know" that they are guilty then I can understand 'disposing of them' - and I can understand why people would want more.
'Putting them down' in such a case I think is all that should be required...in practice what some people--or the vast majoirity--would want is another matter.

If you 'dispose of them' - what more is really needed that isn'tvengeance from my perspective of not believing in 'free-Will'? Getting rid of the problem is all that's needed from my perspective.

EvF Wrote:Consider the following hypothetical scenario for instance: What if you kill someone for killing a family member but it turns out you'd got the wrong person and you killed someone innocent - just as the real killer did your family member. Since if they had simply been arrested and/or questioned and then it was realized that it wasn't them - then police could search for the real killer rather than having someone else innocent die at your hands. From the family of this innocent victim's perspective you could seem just as bad to them as the killer of your family member does to you...they may not even sympathize because they might think you're 'just as bad' because you 'stooped down' to the level of the killer of your family member. And if they somehow can see it from your perspective a bit - I bet they'd still be very angry and upset (assuming they loved their family member) - it's hardly going to seem different to them if different at all, I think.

Quote:And please save me the bullshit of "Stooping down" to the level of the killer by killing him. Unless I start raping him before or after, or take his money after shooting him in the head....Ummm, no, there is no stooping down to his level when his act is of such.

I was talking about in my hypothetical scenario: Of when who you'd killed wasn't actually the killer, because in your rage you killed the wrong person when trying to kill who you thought was your family member's killer because of how you--understandably--felt. So you hypothetically killed an innocent person. I am talking about how the family members of the innocent person you killed may or may not feel you had "Stooped down" to the level of your family member's killer. The difference is of course that you did it by accident because you thought you'd got the killer - and the killer of your family member did it intentionally so you hadn't really "stooped down" - you'd 'just' went out of control and killed the wrong person - which is of course still a total disaster to say the least (in this hypothetical example). But my point is that whether the other family of the innocent person you accidentally killed by mistake could 'see it like that' is what I meant....they may or may not feel you had "stooped down" - I wasn't talking about the killing of a killer I was talking about a killing of someone who was mistaken for a killer who was in fact innocent.

Sorry if I didn't make myself clear.

But yes I think innocent people being executed is worse than guilty going free - or them simply being locked up instead!

And if you have DNA evidence that is completely undeniable...I see no reason to go beyond 'merely' 'putting them down like a rabid dog' - since I don't believe in 'free will' so it's not like I believe they could do anything otherwise out of their own conscious volition at those exact moments. So I'd see no reason to go beyond 'putting them down like a rabid dog' it gets rid of the 'problem beast' - that is all that's required from my perspective.

EvF

Quote:OK so you would have the death penalty when it is " certain " that you've got the right murderer(s ).
Unfortunately, you know as well as I that such certainty cannot be guaranteed 100% of the time.....that is my principal reason for being against.
I think there can be not much worse in life than to find yourself banged up for a crime you didn't commit.
And when that crime is murder...........

That answer almost sounds like a Christian defending their Pro-Life stance. "Instead of having a happy medium with Abortion, let's just get rid of it, regardless of the circumstance"....

You catch someone on video murdering someone or have their dna inside the victim, I would say that's pretty good evidence that he/she did it. Or better yet, if they come out and testify that they are guilty. Yes, there are not many cases that have this happen, but it does happen and in cases such as that, I agree with the Death penalty.

Just as Abortion, I am Pro-Choice, but do not agree with late term abortions or it being used as a birth control, but because of those few things I disagree with, I would never say, "Just get rid of it because of yada yada..."

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Quote:I was talking about in my hypothetical scenario: Of when who you'd killed wasn't actually the killer, because in your rage you killed the wrong person when trying to kill who you thought was your family member's killer because of how you--understandably--felt. So you hypothetically killed an innocent person. I am talking about how the family members of the innocent person you killed may or may not feel you had "Stooped down" to the level of your family member's killer. The difference is of course that you did it by accident because you thought you'd got the killer - and the killer of your family member did it intentionally so you hadn't really "stooped down" - you'd 'just' went out of control and killed the wrong person - which is of course still a total disaster to say the least (in this hypothetical example). But my point is that whether the other family of the innocent person you accidentally killed by mistake could 'see it like that' is what I meant....they may or may not feel you had "stooped down" - I wasn't talking about the killing of a killer I was talking about a killing of someone who was mistaken for a killer who was in fact innocent.

Sorry if I didn't make myself clear.

But yes I think innocent people being executed is worse than guilty going free - or them simply being locked up instead!

And if you have DNA evidence that is completely undeniable...I see no reason to go beyond 'merely' 'putting them down like a rabid dog' - since I don't believe in 'free will' so it's not like I believe they could do anything otherwise out of their own conscious volition at those exact moments. So I'd see no reason to go beyond 'putting them down like a rabid dog' it gets rid of the 'problem beast' - that is all that's required from my perspective.

I'm sure if I mistakenly killed someone because I thought they were the killer, the innocent victims family would want me dead, just as much as I would if that happened to one of my family members. And like I stated earlier, if I did this, then I would plead my case and be found guilty, but not after many appeals, back and forth, etc. etc. Yes, it would presumably, "Suck", but that still does not deter me from being against Capitol Punishment.

(I just hope I can plead temporary insanity for my reasoning's of going ape shit on a human being. Because something tells me that if someone killed one of my daughters or wife, I would not be in my right mind after the fact if the killer or even a person who I thought did it was standing in-front of me)...

Samson,
You replied to my last post but you haven't actually dealt with innocent people being put to death.
I hesitate to second guess you, but if you will not answer do I take it that you think that innocent people being executed is a " price worth paying " ?