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A new Confederacy
#21
RE: A new Confederacy
(January 13, 2021 at 9:50 am)Spongebob Wrote:
(January 13, 2021 at 9:37 am)Gawdzilla Sama Wrote: The whole "Red State/Blue State" thing is meant to confuse non-USians about our actual political character, which is quite paisley.

Are you saying where you live all people don't have a red or blue hue?  Maybe I should get my eyes checked.

But to just play devil's advocate, why couldn't the obstacles be overcome?  Yes, most big cities lean Democrat and rural areas are heavily Republican.  If the overall number of voters lean one way or another, they can outvote the opposition.  So if some state held a referendum or ballot initiative to seek to part ways with the nation, it could pass.  We know that some people are already moving between states for political reasons, so this could be just another reason to do that.  If there were enough people pushing to do this and if enough were elected to congress, it could force a debate on the subject, potentially stalling other legislation.  What would it take for elected officials to seriously consider this if the alternative was violence?  Think about the European Union for a second.  I never expected Britain to leave the EU and even though the EU isn't the same thing as the US, the similarities are clear enough.

Understand I'm not advocating for this; just exploring what might happen given that our politics continue to split into a wider gap.

Not only would the 'blue' electorate oppose secession, so would many of the 'red' electorate. Being conservative or even a Trumpist doesn't make you a secessionist.
I'm not anti-Christian. I'm anti-stupid.
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#22
RE: A new Confederacy
(January 13, 2021 at 10:39 am)Mister Agenda Wrote: Not only would the 'blue' electorate oppose secession, so would many of the 'red' electorate. Being conservative or even a Trumpist doesn't make you a secessionist.
Well spotted. Internet furors notwithstanding we are in general pleased with our current status.
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#23
RE: A new Confederacy
In a very important sense, I think that it does, or at the very least primes you for secessionist ideology. The right wing in the us demands white supremacy, or white separatism. We can pretty it up and deny it and say "not my right wing friend" all we like.

Well, maybe the right has left our right wing friend behind - good for them. Most of the red electorate has been a-okay with the events of the last four years, if anything, they're convinced that the other guy and the ghost of hugo chavez are the source of all ills. The right wing has ceased to be indecent and become sick. So-called centrist dems provide the only thing approaching a cogent and valid right wing perspective in the us, at present, to the detriment of all voters.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#24
RE: A new Confederacy
(January 13, 2021 at 9:50 am)Spongebob Wrote:
(January 13, 2021 at 9:37 am)Gawdzilla Sama Wrote: The whole "Red State/Blue State" thing is meant to confuse non-USians about our actual political character, which is quite paisley.

Are you saying where you live all people don't have a red or blue hue?  Maybe I should get my eyes checked.

But to just play devil's advocate, why couldn't the obstacles be overcome?  Yes, most big cities lean Democrat and rural areas are heavily Republican.  If the overall number of voters lean one way or another, they can outvote the opposition.  So if some state held a referendum or ballot initiative to seek to part ways with the nation, it could pass.  We know that some people are already moving between states for political reasons, so this could be just another reason to do that.  If there were enough people pushing to do this and if enough were elected to congress, it could force a debate on the subject, potentially stalling other legislation.  What would it take for elected officials to seriously consider this if the alternative was violence?  Think about the European Union for a second.  I never expected Britain to leave the EU and even though the EU isn't the same thing as the US, the similarities are clear enough.

Understand I'm not advocating for this; just exploring what might happen given that our politics continue to split into a wider gap.

Since the courts have repeatedly declared the US to be a perpetual, insoluble union, a referendum seems like it would be a non-starter.

Debate on secession is unlikely ever to come to the floor.

The chief difference between the EU and the US is that EU members are allowed to leave, US states are not.

The US already fought one war over secession, I don’t imagine they’d balk at another.

Boru
‘Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.’ Ralph Waldo Emerson
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#25
RE: A new Confederacy
(January 13, 2021 at 12:27 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: Since the courts have repeatedly declared the US to be a perpetual, insoluble union, a referendum seems like it would be a non-starter.

Debate on secession is unlikely ever to come to the floor.

The chief difference between the EU and the US is that EU members are allowed to leave, US states are not.

The US already fought one war over secession, I don’t imagine they’d balk at another.

Boru

These are all accurate and valid points as they pertain to the law and a functioning United States.  However, if you think something written down on paper can stop a rebellion from happening then you are ignoring practically all human history.
Why is it so?
~Julius Sumner Miller
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#26
RE: A new Confederacy
Putting it mildly, eh? Institutionally, the us is far less inclined to humor and far more capable of eradicating insurrectionists than it was in april of 1861.

@ Bob.

Consider the practicality of institution in light of those aspects of us law. Laws don't just happen, they're literally made of people, and those people have an interest in survival in the context of insurrection that can and will exceed any ideological sympathies that they hold. A president of the united states could be a robe wearing klansman - and they will still not humor any breakaway klan states or claims that their authority or office is illegitimate.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#27
RE: A new Confederacy
(January 13, 2021 at 12:48 pm)Spongebob Wrote:
(January 13, 2021 at 12:27 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: Since the courts have repeatedly declared the US to be a perpetual, insoluble union, a referendum seems like it would be a non-starter.

Debate on secession is unlikely ever to come to the floor.

The chief difference between the EU and the US is that EU members are allowed to leave, US states are not.

The US already fought one war over secession, I don’t imagine they’d balk at another.

Boru

These are all accurate and valid points as they pertain to the law and a functioning United States.  However, if you think something written down on paper can stop a rebellion from happening then you are ignoring practically all human history.

While it’s perfectly true that something written down on paper can’t stop a rebellion, it’s equally true that massive military force can do exactly that.

Boru
‘Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.’ Ralph Waldo Emerson
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#28
RE: A new Confederacy
Grant argued that the civil war was punishment for the mexican american war. A war that, whatever misgivings Grant was expressing with that turn of phrase, many americans agreed with and saw as the fulfillment of their state identity. You might enjoy this if you're looking to compare the events that lead up to the last confederacy with current events.



https://www.essentialcivilwarcurriculum....20conflict.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
#29
RE: A new Confederacy
(January 13, 2021 at 12:50 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: @  Bob.

Consider the practicality of institution in light of those aspects of us law.  Laws don't just happen, they're literally made of people, and those people have an interest in survival in the context of insurrection that can and will exceed any ideological sympathies that they hold.  A president of the united states could be a robe wearing klansman - and they will still not humor any breakaway klan states or claims that their authority or office is illegitimate.

That might have been convincing before Jan. 6, 2021.  I believe the Right has now made it clear they will no longer tolerate the politics of the Left.  The danger in a split is mostly when the Left is in power but it could be the other way around as well.  Now that we see people like Ted Cruz and Josh Hawley openly join with the Fascist Right and trust me, there will be no consequences for them, what is to stop them from continuing to pursue power and continuing to pursue the manipulation of national and state politics to carve out a society that they control?  We saw Trump openly pursing nonexistent precedents to hold on to power, calling on the VP to basically declare the election invalid and Trump the winner.  We heard a recording of him pressuring state officials to manufacture votes for him and to invalidate the vote tally in their state.  That is open, clear defiance for established law.  The Fascist Right has no interest in laws that don't help their cause.  Once that Rubicon is crossed, why would they suddenly stop at some other law or statute?  They've already been manipulating election laws for decades to favor Republicans.  And don't for a minute think that once Trump is gone, the next batch of GOP hopefuls will be nice guys like Mitt Romney.  Those days are over, guys.  In 2022 I predict you will see numerous Trump acolytes running for and winning many offices.  I believe the worst is yet to come but I hope I'm just plain wrong.

(January 13, 2021 at 1:23 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: While it’s perfectly true that something written down on paper can’t stop a rebellion, it’s equally true that massive military force can do exactly that.

Boru

Only if you assume that military force opposes the rebellion.  Soldiers follow their commanding officers, not their own personal loyalties.  All you need are a handful of generals.
Why is it so?
~Julius Sumner Miller
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#30
RE: A new Confederacy
Wouldn't work in the US. Our troops have the right to disobey unlawful orders.

Even if our precious bodily fluids are in danger.
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