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A new Confederacy
#31
RE: A new Confederacy
(January 13, 2021 at 1:50 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Grant argued that the civil war was punishment for the mexican american war.  A war that, whatever misgivings Grant was expressing with that turn of phrase, many americans agreed with and saw as the fulfillment of their state identity.  You might enjoy this if you're looking to compare the events that lead up to the last confederacy with current events.

Thanks, I'll certainly read that.  I spend a good deal of time reading Presidential biographies (and other history) but I haven't yet gotten around to Polk although his term has been referenced many times in the one's I have read.  Based on my knowledge of pre and post-civil war history, I do not agree that the M-A war alone was the the cause of the civil war.  There was a split; not everyone wanted to pursue Texas but some wanted even more of Mexico thanks to the viral idea of manifest destiny.

If anything the CW was the culmination of the first 85 years of the country's history (if you start at 1776).  The slavery issue was ignored, compromised, kicked down the road and mishandled numerous times before it became critical with the expansion to the west and it was at its core about power.  The similarities to today are frightening, except as I pointed out, there is no single hot button issue, no "slavery", just this vague ideal of the white person living in "Freedom", whatever that means to them.  I'm a white guy in my 50's and I am nearly completely surrounded by them and even I don't understand what it is they want.  As far as I can tell, it's an ideology and not an actual policy.

(January 13, 2021 at 3:32 pm)Gawdzilla Sama Wrote: Wouldn't work in the US. Our troops have the right to disobey unlawful orders.

Even if our precious bodily fluids are in danger.

Perhaps, but somehow I still don't see that happening.  I assume that "right" extends to the police, yes?  How many times have you seen video of cops just go along with one or two that are beating an unarmed man to death because he wouldn't stop arguing with them?  Did you see the video of George Floyd?  It was one guy doing the damage while others stood around looking confused.  When they asked him if they should let him up, the cop barked at them and they backed off quickly.  Underlings don't disobey their commanders on a general basis; they are indoctrinated NOT to do that.
Why is it so?
~Julius Sumner Miller
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#32
RE: A new Confederacy
(January 13, 2021 at 3:24 pm)Spongebob Wrote:
(January 13, 2021 at 12:50 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: @  Bob.

Consider the practicality of institution in light of those aspects of us law.  Laws don't just happen, they're literally made of people, and those people have an interest in survival in the context of insurrection that can and will exceed any ideological sympathies that they hold.  A president of the united states could be a robe wearing klansman - and they will still not humor any breakaway klan states or claims that their authority or office is illegitimate.

That might have been convincing before Jan. 6, 2021.  I believe the Right has now made it clear they will no longer tolerate the politics of the Left.  The danger in a split is mostly when the Left is in power but it could be the other way around as well.  Now that we see people like Ted Cruz and Josh Hawley openly join with the Fascist Right and trust me, there will be no consequences for them, what is to stop them from continuing to pursue power and continuing to pursue the manipulation of national and state politics to carve out a society that they control?  We saw Trump openly pursing nonexistent precedents to hold on to power, calling on the VP to basically declare the election invalid and Trump the winner.  We heard a recording of him pressuring state officials to manufacture votes for him and to invalidate the vote tally in their state.  That is open, clear defiance for established law.  The Fascist Right has no interest in laws that don't help their cause.  Once that Rubicon is crossed, why would they suddenly stop at some other law or statute?  They've already been manipulating election laws for decades to favor Republicans.  And don't for a minute think that once Trump is gone, the next batch of GOP hopefuls will be nice guys like Mitt Romney.  Those days are over, guys.  In 2022 I predict you will see numerous Trump acolytes running for and winning many offices.  I believe the worst is yet to come but I hope I'm just plain wrong.

(January 13, 2021 at 1:23 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: While it’s perfectly true that something written down on paper can’t stop a rebellion, it’s equally true that massive military force can do exactly that.

Boru

Only if you assume that military force opposes the rebellion.  Soldiers follow their commanding officers, not their own personal loyalties.  All you need are a handful of generals.

Soldiers follow their oaths. As for your 'handful of generals':

Quote:MEMORANDUM FOR THE JOINT FORCE

SUBJECT: MESSAGE TO THE JOINT FORCE


The American people have trusted the Armed Forces of the United States to protect them and our Constitution for almost 250 years. As we have done throughout our history, the U.S. military will obey lawful orders from civilian leadership, support civil authorities to protect lives and property, ensure public safety in accordance with the law, and remain fully committed to protecting and defending the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic.

The violent riot in Washington, D.C. on January 6, 2021 was a direct assault on the U.S. Congress, the Capitol building, and our Constitutional process. We mourn the deaths of the two Capitol policemen and others connected to these unprecedented events.

We witnessed actions inside the Capitol building that were inconsistent with the rule of law. The rights of freedom of speech and assembly do not give anyone the right to resort to violence, sedition and insurrection.

As Service Members, we must embody the values and ideals of the Nation. We support and defend the Constitution. Any act to disrupt the Constitutional process is not only against our traditions, values, and oath; it is against the law.

On January 20, 2021, in accordance with the Constitution, confirmed by the states and the courts, and certified by Congress, President-elect Biden will be inaugurated and will become our 46th Commander in Chief.

To our men and women deployed and at home, safeguarding our country-stay ready, keep your eyes on the horizon, and remain focused on the mission. We honor your continued service in defense of every American.

(emphasis added)

It seems fairly clear what the position of the US armed forces would be in the fantasy-land scenario you describe.

Boru
‘Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.’ Ralph Waldo Emerson
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#33
RE: A new Confederacy
It's hard enough to get a joe to follow a lawful order. Case in point, civil war rifles have been found with as many as twenty balls loaded. It's unlikely that any new confederacy will be built out of or benefit from a military coup. The danger is cultural, as it was then. Of a society believing that it is not unlawful to do such and such, and that they will not be punished (and may be rewarded) by their peers.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#34
RE: A new Confederacy
So you're saying there were zero police or other law enforcement personnel who participated in the coup last week?
Why is it so?
~Julius Sumner Miller
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#35
RE: A new Confederacy
People who are in law enforcement and the military still have personal lives. That one of them should attend a coup can't be taken to mean that their units participated in a coup - though...the situation doesn't look great with regards to the cap police (or the fbi, or intel, or the actual congresscritters themselves, at present). This is a thoroughly civilian problem.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#36
RE: A new Confederacy
(January 13, 2021 at 3:42 pm)Spongebob Wrote: Perhaps, but somehow I still don't see that happening.  I assume that "right" extends to the police, yes?  How many times have you seen video of cops just go along with one or two that are beating an unarmed man to death because he wouldn't stop arguing with them?  Did you see the video of George Floyd?  It was one guy doing the damage while others stood around looking confused.  When they asked him if they should let him up, the cop barked at them and they backed off quickly.  Underlings don't disobey their commanders on a general basis; they are indoctrinated NOT to do that.

You see the videos you agree with, like most other people.
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#37
RE: A new Confederacy
It's not a right, at any rate - us forces have a duty to refuse unlawful orders, and the failure to do so is consequential. In that sense, to the extent that these movements actively recruit military personnel (and they do) the ideology that they're espousing is antithetical to the indoctrination that servicemembers receive.

It's a common misapprehension that we're indoctrinated to be loyal to our leaders - and, as a matter of actual practice - we're certainly not. We are to remain loyal to our oaths no matter what our generally reviled chain of command tells us to do. That's how we protect ourselves, that's how we protect others.

If someone ordered me to overthrow the us government I'd treat it about the same as someone ordering me to shove my hand up my ass. I would refuse on general principle, note that the order is wildly unlawful, remind the superior that I am lazy, and then finally have real practical questions as to how they imagined I'd be able to have accomplished it anyway. At gunpoint, I would simply fail to achieve the objective. "Sir, I'm sorry sir, I have giant fucking hands sir!" .

That, is a soldiers right, rather than duty. The right to fail. The right to miss.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
#38
RE: A new Confederacy
(January 13, 2021 at 6:21 pm)Gawdzilla Sama Wrote:
(January 13, 2021 at 3:42 pm)Spongebob Wrote: Perhaps, but somehow I still don't see that happening.  I assume that "right" extends to the police, yes?  How many times have you seen video of cops just go along with one or two that are beating an unarmed man to death because he wouldn't stop arguing with them?  Did you see the video of George Floyd?  It was one guy doing the damage while others stood around looking confused.  When they asked him if they should let him up, the cop barked at them and they backed off quickly.  Underlings don't disobey their commanders on a general basis; they are indoctrinated NOT to do that.

You see the videos you agree with, like most other people.

I absolutely reject that accusation!  Like any human, I have biases, but I'm not blind enough to not understand that police do not pose for selfies when a government building is being raided.  And I'm not calling the entire police force corrupt either.  Most police were trying to protect the building and keep the invaders out, but there were some who were waving them in and playing nice with them.  Investigations have already identified some who did not do their duty and several off duty police officers from outside DC have been identified as participants in the insurrection.  You clearly just don't want to accept that we do have corrupt police and likely military personnel who would follow Trump if he were able to successfully stage a coup.  That's fine, keep telling yourself that if it helps you sleep.

(January 13, 2021 at 6:26 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: It's not a right, at any rate - us forces have a duty to refuse unlawful orders, and the failure to do so is consequential.  In that sense, to the extent that these movements actively recruit military personnel (and they do) the ideology that they're espousing is antithetical to the indoctrination that servicemembers receive.  

It's a common misapprehension that we're indoctrinated to be loyal to our leaders - and, as a matter of actual practice - we're certainly not.  We are to remain loyal to our oaths no matter what our generally reviled chain of command tells us to do.  That's how we protect ourselves, that's how we protect others.

If someone ordered me to overthrow the us government I'd treat it about the same as someone ordering me to shove my hand up my ass.  I would refuse on general principle, note that the order is wildly unlawful, remind the superior that I am lazy, and then finally have real practical questions as to how they imagined I'd be able to have accomplished it anyway.  At gunpoint, I would simply fail to achieve the objective.  "Sir, I'm sorry sir, I have giant fucking hands sir!" .

That, is a soldiers right, rather than duty.  The right to fail.  The right to miss.

That's all well and good, but you aren't a Trumpist.
Why is it so?
~Julius Sumner Miller
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#39
RE: A new Confederacy
(January 13, 2021 at 6:03 pm)Spongebob Wrote: So you're saying there were zero police or other law enforcement personnel who participated in the coup last week?

There absolutely were, and they’re going to have a terrible time because of it. The tiny, TINY fraction of law enforcement and military personnel who participated in the insurrection should not be taken as a reliable predictor that a significant number of units would take part  in a secessionist movement.

Jaysus, and I thought *I* was the one with a low opinion of the military.

Boru
‘Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.’ Ralph Waldo Emerson
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#40
RE: A new Confederacy
(January 13, 2021 at 6:46 pm)Spongebob Wrote:
(January 13, 2021 at 6:21 pm)Gawdzilla Sama Wrote: You see the videos you agree with, like most other people.

I absolutely reject that accusation!  Like any human, I have biases, but I'm not blind enough to not understand that police do not pose for selfies when a government building is being raided.  And I'm not calling the entire police force corrupt either.  Most police were trying to protect the building and keep the invaders out, but there were some who were waving them in and playing nice with them.  Investigations have already identified some who did not do their duty and several off duty police officers from outside DC have been identified as participants in the insurrection.  You clearly just don't want to accept that we do have corrupt police and likely military personnel who would follow Trump if he were able to successfully stage a coup.  That's fine, keep telling yourself that if it helps you sleep.

Or maybe - just Maybe. - the threat simply wasn't what the media shitstorm portrays - and the capitol police on scene did not see any real threat........

Oh that couldn't be it - YOU SAW IT ON TV - IT MUST BE REAL!
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