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Open to explore possibility
#41
RE: Open to explore possibility
@Klorophyll

Quote:Pascal's wager is .... Pascal's idea, not any religion's. And I think I was misunderstood, I am not defending Pascal's wager here, I am reminding OP how stupid it is to give up belief in God because the religion he grew up with turned out to be a pile of crap. It's a dishonest move to do so, and once one is dishonest, Pascal's reasoning is actually valid: you're risking an infinite loss for being dishonest toward the god question.

I think it’s adorable that you claim you’re not defending Pascal’s Wager and then proceed to defend it.

You’re a cuddle puppy, you are.

Boru
‘But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods or no gods. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.’ - Thomas Jefferson
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#42
RE: Open to explore possibility
(February 15, 2021 at 1:49 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: I think it’s adorable that you claim you’re not defending Pascal’s Wager and then proceed to defend it.

You’re a cuddle puppy, you are.

Boru

That's because you don't understand Pascal's wager to begin with. Pascal's argument doesn't require honesty. According to the wager, one should force themselves to believe in God even if they have arguments against this belief. And by doing so, they'll hedge themselves against an infinite loss if the religious narrative turns out to be true.

The wager in this form is invalid of course because God is omniscient, and therefore aware of this manoeuvre. If one dismisses belief in God dishonestly and/or without carefully assessing it, then they are in this case really exposed to an infinite loss. God can justly punish them for being careless towards an existential question. It's like hearing breaking news about a possible hurricane coming to your neighborhood and simply continue doing your mundane tasks as if you heard nothing.
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#43
RE: Open to explore possibility
(February 15, 2021 at 2:10 pm)Klorophyll Wrote:
(February 15, 2021 at 1:49 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: I think it’s adorable that you claim you’re not defending Pascal’s Wager and then proceed to defend it.

You’re a cuddle puppy, you are.

Boru

That's because you don't understand Pascal's wager to begin with. Pascal's argument doesn't require honesty. According to the wager, one should force themselves to believe in God even if they have arguments against this belief. And by doing so, they'll hedge themselves against an infinite loss if the religious narrative turns out to be true.

The wager in this form is invalid of course because God is omniscient, and therefore aware of this manoeuvre. If one dismisses  belief in God dishonestly and/or without carefully assessing it, then they are in this case really exposed to an infinite loss. God can justly punish them for being careless towards an existential question. It's like hearing breaking news about a possible hurricane coming to your neighborhood and simply continue doing your mundane tasks as if you heard nothing.

Bold mine- neither do any of yours.
  
“If you are the smartest person in the room, then you are in the wrong room.” — Confucius
                                      
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#44
RE: Open to explore possibility
(February 15, 2021 at 2:10 pm)Klorophyll Wrote:
(February 15, 2021 at 1:49 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: I think it’s adorable that you claim you’re not defending Pascal’s Wager and then proceed to defend it.

You’re a cuddle puppy, you are.

Boru

That's because you don't understand Pascal's wager to begin with. Pascal's argument doesn't require honesty. According to the wager, one should force themselves to believe in God even if they have arguments against this belief. And by doing so, they'll hedge themselves against an infinite loss if the religious narrative turns out to be true.

The wager in this form is invalid of course because God is omniscient, and therefore aware of this manoeuvre. If one dismisses  belief in God dishonestly and/or without carefully assessing it, then they are in this case really exposed to an infinite loss. God can justly punish them for being careless towards an existential question. It's like hearing breaking news about a possible hurricane coming to your neighborhood and simply continue doing your mundane tasks as if you heard nothing.

And allowing belief in a personal deity to run your life is like living in a constant state of hurricane prep despite living in Kansas.
[Image: nL4L1haz_Qo04rZMFtdpyd1OZgZf9NSnR9-7hAWT...dc2a24480e]
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#45
RE: Open to explore possibility
(February 15, 2021 at 1:08 pm)Klorophyll Wrote:
(February 14, 2021 at 6:36 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Would you care o give an example of an honest way to dismiss your silly religion, in your estimation?

Why are you asking a Muslim if they found an honest way to dismiss Islam ? There obviously isn't any, from my perspective. 

There's no way to honestly dismiss your silly religion, and you insist that people go to hell for dishonestly dismissing your silly religion?

Quote:And as I said repeatedly, religions - Islam, at least- don't say nonreligious people will be punished because they are nonreligious, but because they dishonestly dismissed some religion. This is an important nuance, you and OP should try to take some time to understand it.
Which one of these assholes has it right?

If you're going to make it your business to casually threaten strangers, you should put more thought into your excuses.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#46
RE: Open to explore possibility
(February 15, 2021 at 4:26 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: There's no way to honestly dismiss your silly religion, and you insist that people go to hell for dishonestly dismissing your silly religion? 

There is no way to honestly dismiss a true proposition, do you disagree? I think the articles of Islamic faith are a true proposition, and therefore cannot be dismissed or disproved.

I am not insisting that anybody goes to hell. I am just pointing out to OP his numerous misunderstandings of the content of religious belief.
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#47
RE: Open to explore possibility
Right, because, in addition to this being a world where an almighty djinn will punish everyone who laughs at your ineptitude...it's also a world where your own silly comments aren't posted on a board for anyone to read.

That's just a true proposition. You tell me, any way to honestly dismiss it?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
#48
RE: Open to explore possibility
(February 15, 2021 at 2:10 pm)Klorophyll Wrote:
(February 15, 2021 at 1:49 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: I think it’s adorable that you claim you’re not defending Pascal’s Wager and then proceed to defend it.

You’re a cuddle puppy, you are.

Boru

That's because you don't understand Pascal's wager to begin with. Pascal's argument doesn't require honesty. According to the wager, one should force themselves to believe in God even if they have arguments against this belief. And by doing so, they'll hedge themselves against an infinite loss if the religious narrative turns out to be true.

The wager in this form is invalid of course because God is omniscient, and therefore aware of this manoeuvre. If one dismisses  belief in God dishonestly and/or without carefully assessing it, then they are in this case really exposed to an infinite loss. God can justly punish them for being careless towards an existential question. It's like hearing breaking news about a possible hurricane coming to your neighborhood and simply continue doing your mundane tasks as if you heard nothing.



[Image: extraordinarywoo-sig.jpg]
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#49
RE: Open to explore possibility
(February 15, 2021 at 2:10 pm)Klorophyll Wrote: If one dismisses  belief in God dishonestly and/or without carefully assessing it, then they are in this case really exposed to an infinite loss.

In my case, belief in gods -- any gods -- has been a non-starter my whole life. It just doesn't feel real to me, so much so that I can't even pretend to believe. This is what honesty looks like in my life, and this is a facet of belief versus non-belief that you should seriously consider.
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#50
RE: Open to explore possibility
If we apply Kloros rule of honesty...then that means you're a liar, or islam is not a true proposition. Easy bet. Womp womp.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply



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