Heavenly rebellions, clarity of doctrine, evil as a byproduct of free will which is counter to god's will.

Take notes Salty, see how each of these concepts are unfalsifiable, that's how it's done.

(November 6, 2011 at 9:36 am)Rhythm Wrote: Heavenly rebellions, clarity of doctrine, evil as a byproduct of free will which is counter to god's will.

Take notes Salty, see how each of these concepts are unfalsifiable, that's how it's done.

They are not. A rebellion in heaven is just as real as the events in Alice and Wonderland are historic. If a war can break out in heaven, then it is equally as possible that Humpty Dumpty was an actual, living egg man. to cast doubt on one is to cast doubt on both. To accept one as fact and reject the other is intellectual dishonesty and lacking of consistency.

If Jesus really did walk on water and raise the dead just by calling out the person's name, then Mary DID have a little lamb and the Terminator movie is an accurate prediction of future events to come.

(November 6, 2011 at 9:36 am)Rhythm Wrote: Heavenly rebellions, clarity of doctrine, evil as a byproduct of free will which is counter to god's will.

You've turned into Batman's side kick?

Spandex?

'You do it God's way or you go to hell.'

Shut up.

'God has many children to choose from in order to rebuild his kingdom.'

Retarded children in your case.

'You can mock him'

I mock your beliefs, not an invisible man.

'God will have the final say in the matter'

He'll dislike a rude bootlick like you more than an altruistic good father like me. Just because you suck him off each Sunday, does not mean he likes you or dislikes me for doing the opposite.

'Unintelligent matter did not create you'

You don't get it do you?

'He is a great environmentalist, he will burn his trash.'

Sounds like a republican environmentalist. Burning creates smoke fool. Recycle!!

'I use to thing that hell was unfair because I knew that I was not living right.'

So you used to be more of a douche?

(November 5, 2011 at 10:23 pm)tackattack Wrote: @Greatest I Am-
I agree that watching your loved ones and friends go into an eternal torment in Hell would be barbaric and would make me want to go down to Hell to save them. That's not the only option is it though? So what is the Gnostic view on what happens ... let's say if I die today, what happens to my soul and will it have a will and the freedom to act?

No clear answer comes from Gnostic as there are just as many sects as there are Christian ones. My type does not read scriptures literally and know that we cannot know that answer till death. We hope.

I can tell you what my apotheosis showed me but only offer it as an anecdotal rendering as I have no more proof of anything any more than anyone has for the unseen.

FMPOV, believing from experience in a cosmic consciousness, there is no hell and we all end up within the cosmic consciousness.

There is free will there but only to think as you want. That freedom though, as you can access all the minds and feelings there, pretty well forces all to eventually form a consensus on all maters. I cannot see much choice other than that.

Not as pretty a picture as some would think of as a heaven but it is what it is. I would have preferred to have found a miracle working super God like the Christians have invented so that I could hope to return to kick mental ass down here, but I will not get that wish.

Regards
DL

(November 6, 2011 at 4:54 pm)Greatest I am Wrote: That freedom though, as you can access all the minds and feelings there, pretty well forces all to eventually form a consensus on all maters.

I knew it was the Borg!

(November 5, 2011 at 11:50 pm)Faith No More Wrote: I guess I can't really speculate because I'm not even certain we actually have free will in this life. The evidence points to the fact that we are slaves of our biological structure so how that would play out in a situation where we don't have bodies is anybody's guess.

I cannot help you with the afterlife but there is a little test that I have devised to prove that we humans have a free will.

Strange though that many do not want to try it. I have found that in religious as well as non religious circles. many seem afraid to either give clear moral answers to simple questions as well as a reluctance to prove to themselves that they have a free will.

If you are interested in my little simple test, let me know by P M and I will meet you there. Perhaps if I convince you, we can collaborate on an O P and you might see how few actually go for it.

Regards
DL

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(November 6, 2011 at 3:01 am)IATIA Wrote:

(November 5, 2011 at 11:50 pm)Faith No More Wrote: I guess I can't really speculate because I'm not even certain we actually have free will in this life. The evidence points to the fact that we are slaves of our biological structure so how that would play out in a situation where we don't have bodies is anybody's guess.

I feel like I have free will, so I must, but my scientific mind tells me otherwise. Just our awareness alone has many unanswered issues. The "Why am I me' thread does not seem to be really going anywhere.

Not surprising. Who would you want to be?
Just pulling your leg friend. I have not read your O P.

On free will though, seem you think that free will means being able to exceed the bounds of nature and physics.

Am I reading you right?
Unanswered issues does not mean that you do not have the free will to pursue those issues and answer them.

Regards
DL

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(November 6, 2011 at 5:03 pm)IATIA Wrote:

(November 6, 2011 at 4:54 pm)Greatest I am Wrote: That freedom though, as you can access all the minds and feelings there, pretty well forces all to eventually form a consensus on all maters.

I knew it was the Borg!

A good analogy actually.
Hey, I did not create what I found. I just found it.
No killing the messenger. I am not pushing anything.

Regards
DL

(November 6, 2011 at 3:01 am)IATIA Wrote: I feel like I have free will, so I must, but my scientific mind tells me otherwise. Just our awareness alone has many unanswered issues. The "Why am I me' thread does not seem to be really going anywhere.

(November 6, 2011 at 5:06 pm)Greatest I am Wrote: Not surprising. Who would you want to be?
Just pulling your leg friend. I have not read your O P.

The "Why am I me" was a thread started by another basically dealing with 'I think, therefore I am, but what am I'.

(November 6, 2011 at 5:06 pm)Greatest I am Wrote: On free will though, seem you think that free will means being able to exceed the bounds of nature and physics.

Am I reading you right?
Unanswered issues does not mean that you do not have the free will to pursue those issues and answer them.

I am still on the bench on free will. If free will is a product of the body, how can it be 'free'? If free will is external to the biochemical physiology, then what is it's container? For that matter, what is the container of our awareness?

If we have 'free will', then we have already "exceeded the [known] bounds of nature and physics".

Quote:

(November 6, 2011 at 7:18 pm)IATIA Wrote:

(November 6, 2011 at 3:01 am)IATIA Wrote: I feel like I have free will, so I must, but my scientific mind tells me otherwise. Just our awareness alone has many unanswered issues. The "Why am I me' thread does not seem to be really going anywhere.

(November 6, 2011 at 5:06 pm)Greatest I am Wrote: Not surprising. Who would you want to be?
Just pulling your leg friend. I have not read your O P.

The "Why am I me" was a thread started by another basically dealing with 'I think, therefore I am, but what am I'.

(November 6, 2011 at 5:06 pm)Greatest I am Wrote: On free will though, seem you think that free will means being able to exceed the bounds of nature and physics.

Am I reading you right?
Unanswered issues does not mean that you do not have the free will to pursue those issues and answer them.

I am still on the bench on free will. If free will is a product of the body, how can it be 'free'?

Free will would be from where the will is and that can only be the body.
I do not understand with your "how can it be 'free'?"

Free will is simply the ability to choose from given choices on the menu. So to speak. If you are given a choice between a or b or c, without any coercion attached to any of them, and if you can choose and get either of them, then you have free will.

Quote:If free will is external to the biochemical physiology, then what is it's container?

It is not as I just stated. Your brain is the container of will.

Quote: For that matter, what is the container of our awareness?

As far as we can tell and this seems to be well proven, the brain.
We are not 100% sure of how the brain produces consciousness but we know it does. Jay Ingram of dixcovery chanel wrote a book not to long agao that speaks to this and how science does not yet have all the answers.

Quote:If we have 'free will', then we have already "exceeded the [known] bounds of nature and physics".

Only if you willed to fly, for instance and did so.
Again, you would have to expand on that. All of this is not free will in heaven though.

I do not want to derail here but I just made an offer to FNM.

"I cannot help you with the afterlife but there is a little test that I have devised to prove that we humans have a free will.

Strange though that many do not want to try it. I have found that in religious as well as non religious circles. many seem afraid to either give clear moral answers to simple questions as well as a reluctance to prove to themselves that they have a free will.

If you are interested in my little simple test, let me know by P M and I will meet you there. Perhaps if I convince you, we can collaborate on an O P and you might see how few actually go for it.

I make the same offer to you.

Regards
DL

(November 6, 2011 at 9:31 pm)Greatest I am Wrote: Free will is simply the ability to choose from given choices on the menu. So to speak. If you are given a choice between a or b or c, without any coercion attached to any of them, and if you can choose and get either of them, then you have free will.

To make that choice requires a thought. This thought is generated by the biochemical processes of the body. The body makes the choice, not the will. Our consciousness rationalizes this action and convinces us that we made a choice.

Free Will