Its all over the news. Not sure how to feel about this. 

It is true we can't fix the world. But I would hate to see Afglhanistan go right back to being a safe harbor for terrorists. And what will happen to the progress made on women's rights. There are pleanty of Afghanies whom want us to stay for protection from the Taliban. But it is true, we also at the same time can't stay there forever. Right now China, posturing over Taiwan, Russia and Iran are threats too.

(April 15, 2021 at 6:43 am)Brian37 Wrote: Its all over the news. Not sure how to feel about this. 

It is true we can't fix the world. But I would hate to see Afglhanistan go right back to being a safe harbor for terrorists. And what will happen to the progress made on women's rights. There are pleanty of Afghanies whom want us to stay for protection from the Taliban. But it is true, we also at the same time can't stay there forever. Right now China, posturing over Taiwan, Russia and Iran are threats too.

The opportunity to win in Afghanistan, if such a thing were possible, has long passed.

The only real options are to withdraw, stay in place with the current policy, maintaining the status-quo, or committing to a massive escalation with the willingness to follow the enemy to wherever they hide, including in other nations.

(April 15, 2021 at 6:43 am)Brian37 Wrote: Its all over the news. Not sure how to feel about this. 

It is true we can't fix the world. But I would hate to see Afglhanistan go right back to being a safe harbor for terrorists. And what will happen to the progress made on women's rights. There are pleanty of Afghanies whom want us to stay for protection from the Taliban. But it is true, we also at the same time can't stay there forever. Right now China, posturing over Taiwan, Russia and Iran are threats too.

If the US didn't want Afghanistan to be a safe harbour for terrorists, then it shouldn't have gone in in thr first place. The Taliban were as against al-Qaeda as the West was, and actovely combatting them.

(April 15, 2021 at 8:02 am)Nomad Wrote:

(April 15, 2021 at 6:43 am)Brian37 Wrote: Its all over the news. Not sure how to feel about this. 

It is true we can't fix the world. But I would hate to see Afglhanistan go right back to being a safe harbor for terrorists. And what will happen to the progress made on women's rights. There are pleanty of Afghanies whom want us to stay for protection from the Taliban. But it is true, we also at the same time can't stay there forever. Right now China, posturing over Taiwan, Russia and Iran are threats too.

If the US didn't want Afghanistan to be a safe harbour for terrorists, then it shouldn't have gone in in thr first place.   The Taliban were as against al-Qaeda as the West was, and actovely combatting them.

I remember when Bin Laden fought the Russians in Afghanistan. The Taliban didn't want the Russians there either.

The opportunity to win in Afghanistan passed when we invaded Iraq.

Prior to that, it was US, with the support of much of the Muslim world, against Taliban,  Which was winnable,   After that, it was the infidels against oppressed and wronged Muslim world.  That hasn’t been won yet after 1300 years.

(April 15, 2021 at 10:24 am)Anomalocaris Wrote: The opportunity to win in Afghanistan passed when we invaded Iraq.

Prior to that, it was US, with the support of much of the Muslim world, against Taliban,  Which was winnable,   After that, it was the infidels against oppressed and wronged Muslim world.  That hasn’t been won yet after 1300 years.

The Soviets fought that war in their backyard -- and they didn't pull any punches like US troops are forced to do (and from bases 1000's of miles away) --- and they couldn't kick the Afghani's asses.....


Those are some battle toughened hombres over there....

Afghanistan is tough to conquer, but one should not mythologize the difficulty.   It is tough but doable, especially if the Afghans can not draw on heavy outside support.

The Afghan resistance survived the soviet occupation because of heavy US, Saudi, Pakistaniand Chinese support, and being able to operate out of protected bases across the border in Pakistan that the soviets can’t touch.    Prior to the start of heavy US support for the afghan resistance in 1984, the Soviets were very close to crushing the Afghan resistance completely and pacifying the country.

Actually, the problem is something even more fundamental than the nature of Afghanistan: the nature of guerrilla warfare. Guerrilla groups are like the hydra; cut off the head of one and two more will come to take its place because they don’t rely on centralized leadership. This wouldn’t be as much of a problem if not for the fact that literally anyone and their mums can be a member, and once the guerrillas start to look like the lesser evil to the population, your chances of victory are pretty much fucked unless you’re willing to commit genocide.

It’s not a coincidence that the only major war the US has fought and decisively won since 1945 was the first Gulf War, when we fought Saddam Hussein’s traditional Western (in terms of tactics) army. And, meanwhile, the rest of the times we’ve done it in that time, we’ve picked fights with Guerrilla forces. And despite all our military might, we got our asses handed to us. Because they can keep a fight going, and even if one group loses popularity, a new one starts to pop up. And the cycle continues because these groups still seem preferable to the Western invaders, even if they seem barbaric to us. If you’ve never watched The Battle of Algiers and you have any interest in how shit like this works, you need to stop what you’re doing and watch it right now. It’s on YouTube, it has English subtitles, it’s in Blu-ray quality, and unless you’re based out of France, Belgium, Luxembourg, Germany, Switzerland, or Korea, you have no excuses, and even in those cases there might be an upload that hasn’t been blocked yet:



Matthieu fundamentally misunderstands the nature of what he’s been dragged into, and any victories he may have against the FLN in the short term will fail; the FLN are the ideological grandparents of the insurgent groups we’ve been fighting nonstop since 9/11, but they’ve developed a level of legitimacy that the French forces simply don’t have and never will again. And we’ve learned shockingly little in the decades since France lost Algeria.

And once that happens, as Valkyrie said, the only options we have are pull out, keep fighting and keep failing, or commit genocide, and given how much of a cult of martyrdom has developed in Middle Eastern terrorist groups, I don’t think any half-measures (like we wound up doing with the Native Americans, i.e., keeping some of them alive) are going to cut it. And if those words terrify you, that’s only a sign you are still sane.

So, to sum up, our options boil down to something a bit less than honorable, no solution at all, and descending into total barbarism with what accounts to a Final Solution. As many drawbacks as there are to just pulling out, It’s by far the best solution available to us.

Afghanistan was never a safe harbor for terrorists.

The country's disaster began when the USSR invaded it. The U.S then decided to unleash an anti-proxy war against the soviets as part of its "cold war offensive". Since the natives of Afghanistan were Muslims, the U.S requested "Muslim militias" from its Muslim allies (Saudi Arabia-Pakistan), and thus the soviet union got defeated.

Then Afghanistan turned into a shithole. It was the making of the U.S's proxy war against the soviets !.

The result was the advent of Al-Qaeda.

The Taliban on the other hand were the natives of Afghanistan. Unlike the foreign "Muslim" proxies that came from Saudi Arabia loaded with "Wahhabism" and led by "Osama bin Laden".

(April 16, 2021 at 12:16 am)WinterHold Wrote: Afghanistan was never a safe harbor for terrorists.

The country's disaster began when the USSR invaded it. The U.S then decided to unleash an anti-proxy war against the soviets as part of its "cold war offensive". Since the natives of Afghanistan were Muslims, the U.S requested "Muslim militias" from its Muslim allies (Saudi Arabia-Pakistan), and thus the soviet union got defeated.

Then Afghanistan turned into a shithole. It was the making of the U.S's proxy war against the soviets !.

The result was the advent of Al-Qaeda.

The Taliban on the other hand were the natives of Afghanistan. Unlike the foreign "Muslim" proxies that came from Saudi Arabia loaded with "Wahhabism" and led by "Osama bin Laden".

This is like arguing over Catholics and Protestants over the British Islands.