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Imagine this...
#51
RE: Imagine this...
That's a good discussion.  I consider the reference to James, Brother to the Lord, to also be an insertion.  Josephus mentions James the Just and another crazy James in The Jewish War.  Since Paul mentions a James, Brother of the Lord in Galatians, the pious forgers saw a way to tie the two James' together and create the idea that Jesus had a blood brother.  I don't see that Paul means real brother, but brother in Christ.

In Antiquities, the passage that mentions Jesus and James ends up being about a different Jesus.  See below:

Festus was now dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so he assembled the sanhedrim of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others, [or, some of his companions]; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned: but as for those who seemed the most equitable of the citizens, and such as were the most uneasy at the breach of the laws, they disliked what was done; they also sent to the king [Agrippa], desiring him to send to Ananus that he should act so no more, for that what he had already done was not to be justified; nay, some of them went also to meet Albinus, as he was upon his journey from Alexandria, and informed him that it was not lawful for Ananus to assemble a sanhedrim without his consent. (24) Whereupon Albinus complied with what they said, and wrote in anger to Ananus, and threatened that he would bring him to punishment for what he had done; on which king Agrippa took the high priesthood from him, when he had ruled but three months, and made Jesus, the son of Damneus, high priest.

It seems obvious that "who was called Christ" is an insertion.  And an awkward one at that.
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#52
RE: Imagine this...
[Image: Tyson-Jesus.jpg]
teachings of the Bible are so muddled and self-contradictory that it was possible for Christians to happily burn heretics alive for five long centuries. It was even possible for the most venerated patriarchs of the Church, like St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas, to conclude that heretics should be tortured (Augustine) or killed outright (Aquinas). Martin Luther and John Calvin advocated the wholesale murder of heretics, apostates, Jews, and witches. - Sam Harris, "Letter To A Christian Nation"
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#53
RE: Imagine this...
As long as people keep looking for objections in The Real Jesus, we're fucking the pooch, categorically.

There never was a jesus, and it wouldn't matter if there were. Christianity is entirely bankrupt.
It's bad for the rest of the world when americans are paid so little they can only afford chocolate mined by child slaves and clothes made in overseas sweatshops. - Robyn Pennacchia
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#54
RE: Imagine this...
(May 2, 2021 at 11:48 am)Jehanne Wrote: Imagine today, Sunday (or, for those reading this later, just pick another day), CNN issues a worldwide news flash at 4 PM EST announcing the following:

"President John F. Kennedy has been shot."

Shortly thereafter Anderson Cooper appears on live TV to describe the mayhem that occurred some 60 or so years ago.

What would you think?  A joke?  They are all crazy?  An alien virus???

The above scenario, however, happened just under two thousand years ago, which, today, believers and skeptics refer to as The Four Gospels.   The earliest Gospel, Mark, was composed around 70 of the common era with The Gospel of John being written sometime in the 90s, some 60 to 70 years after the execution of Jesus.  These writings (as well as others outside of the New Testament) claim many extraordinary things that Jesus supposedly did, such as walking on liquid water and raising the clinical dead back to life.

Some living during that time appear, however, to be completely unimpressed by these stories, which were never mentioned by hundreds, if not thousands, of literate human beings who could have recorded those events.  For instance, the Jewish-Roman historian, Josephus, was born in Jerusalem, the city that Jesus died in, sometime in 37 CE, but in his book on the Jewish & Roman wars, written 30 years later, Josephus never even mentions the existence of Jesus; he does mention Pilate and Ananus, the high priest.  Only some 20 years later, when writing a tome on the history of the Jews does Jesus get a brief, undisputed reference as being "called the Christ".

Clearly, Josephus was unimpressed with the stories surrounding Jesus, no doubt viewing such tales as being a "dime a dozen".  Knowing what scholars know today about all the other miracle workers who lived prior, during and after the time of Jesus should cause us to be even less impressed about the supposed "historical data".

one your framing of analogy is wrong. as you assume a largely illiterate society would treat written information in the same way, hold it is the same esteem and treat eye witnesses so poorly.. when in fact the opposite was true. a good man's word in that time trumped anything supposedly written. as the literate would often hide their own agenda in reading out an official document. tax collectors were notorious for this. as they would receive an official tax notice to collect X they would announce that they would need to collect x+ 10% and pocket the difference. EI the literate were not trusted as much as a solid eyewitness. like the apostles. meaning why would anyone need a book when the apostles the people who lived and worked with christ were there. not to mention they were under the idea christ's return was to take place with in a few years.

Now look at the time frame that you claim the books were written.. why 60AD+? it was because the last of the core group of apostles were coming to the end of their life, and thought if they could have their words written out, if anything happened to them God's word would live on. And this is exactly what happened.

and like it or not in the official writing of josephus, jesus is mention as well in 4 other historical documents written by period historians:
https://dowym.com/voices/5-secular-non-b...-ministry/

only the craziest flat earth type of atheist still tried to deny jesus as a historical figure. this fad went out in the late 90s. i honestly didnt think people were still serious about this arguement.
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#55
RE: Imagine this...
Which of the historical jesi do you believe in?

None of them worked any miracles. Only one of them can be The Guy. If jesus was a composite character, he's not historical, you see. Every single historical jesus candidate would be, if any of them existed, the single best argument against the religion of christianity that could be offered. Some random jew who bitched about the world as it was and died, achieving nothing.

You sure you don't throw your chips in with some mythical christ, instead? Remember, big guys listening.
It's bad for the rest of the world when americans are paid so little they can only afford chocolate mined by child slaves and clothes made in overseas sweatshops. - Robyn Pennacchia
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#56
RE: Imagine this...
(May 4, 2021 at 3:49 pm)Drich Wrote: and like it or not in the official writing of josephus, jesus is mention as well in 4 other historical documents written by period historians:
https://dowym.com/voices/5-secular-non-b...-ministry/

He did no such thing. Here are archeologists, historians, and religious scholars explaining how Josephus didn't write abut Jesus, but that Christians fabricated those writings - you know how you Lie for Jesus.



teachings of the Bible are so muddled and self-contradictory that it was possible for Christians to happily burn heretics alive for five long centuries. It was even possible for the most venerated patriarchs of the Church, like St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas, to conclude that heretics should be tortured (Augustine) or killed outright (Aquinas). Martin Luther and John Calvin advocated the wholesale murder of heretics, apostates, Jews, and witches. - Sam Harris, "Letter To A Christian Nation"
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#57
RE: Imagine this...
(May 2, 2021 at 2:19 pm)edial Wrote: But Jesus was only popular among the common people, but very unpopular among the Jewish leadership.
They hated him intensely, but even they wrote in Talmud that Christ was doing miracles.

Thanks,
Ed

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_in_t...censorship
I'm not anti-Christian. I'm anti-stupid.
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#58
RE: Imagine this...
(May 4, 2021 at 3:54 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Which of the historical jesi do you believe in?

None of them worked any miracles.
says who?
Quote: Only one of them can be The Guy.  
jesus of the gospels. remember luke was a secular historian till he was conscripted. so the book of luke is technically a secular account. he was not chosen by jesus and technically not a disciple of christ but a student of paul. (which is why we know the book of luke was written first and closer to the time of christ than most believe.
Quote:If jesus was a composite character, he's not historical, you see.  
didn't say he was composit.. the other secular historians obviously have a varying degree of understanding of christ and simply wrote what THEY PERSONALLY understood to be true. Christ was a large and complex person and ad many facets to him. it is not surprising that a common man 2000 years ago did not see the big picture spelled out in the bible. how could they it took several apostoles to compile what we know of christ. and to expect a man 2000 years ago who primary qualification is he could read and write to understand the nature of god with out god holding his hand (like he did with luke/which seemingly invalidates his secular status automatically) what we have is the best a finite mind could produce depending on how close a given historian was to jesus
Quote: Every single historical jesus candidate would be, if any of them existed, the single best argument against the religion of christianity that could be offered.  Some random jew who bitched about the world as it was and died, achieving nothing.

You sure you don't throw your chips in with some mythical christ, instead?  Remember, big guys listening.
all in.

(May 5, 2021 at 12:50 am)Fake Messiah Wrote:
(May 4, 2021 at 3:49 pm)Drich Wrote: and like it or not in the official writing of josephus, jesus is mention as well in 4 other historical documents written by period historians:
https://dowym.com/voices/5-secular-non-b...-ministry/

He did no such thing. Here are archeologists, historians, and religious scholars explaining how Josephus didn't write abut Jesus, but that Christians fabricated those writings - you know how you Lie for Jesus.




sweetheart your little video is call/considered a tertiary commentary and can be refuted with a nut-huh. I provided you with 5 primary sources. in the world of intellectual honesty and deep study primary source material is damn near irrefutable let alone 5 separate period correct sources. 5 sources that have no period challengers to them.. this means you out of sheer faith have to want to believe what is in the video over these primary sources that documented christ with in his era. you are expending more faith at this point than what it takes to believe in christ and to have God directly respond to you.
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#59
RE: Imagine this...
(May 5, 2021 at 9:53 am)Drich Wrote: sweetheart your little video is call/considered a tertiary commentary and can be refuted with a nut-huh. I provided you with 5 primary sources.

Yeah, right. What are actual historians and experts compared to fanatical Christians.

Indeed, only fanatical Christians take those "sources" seriously.

Take that Mara Bar-Serapion's letter. Nobody knows who Mara Bar-Serapion was, when the letter was written -- he certainly could not have been a contemporary of Jesus; the letter contains blunders (lies) like: that Athens suffered famine and pestilence after Socrates’ death, that Pythagoras was burned by the people of Samos.

Also, the letter doesn't even mention Jesus by name but some “Wise King” who “enacted new laws” to which there is no indication that it is Jesus. And so on.
teachings of the Bible are so muddled and self-contradictory that it was possible for Christians to happily burn heretics alive for five long centuries. It was even possible for the most venerated patriarchs of the Church, like St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas, to conclude that heretics should be tortured (Augustine) or killed outright (Aquinas). Martin Luther and John Calvin advocated the wholesale murder of heretics, apostates, Jews, and witches. - Sam Harris, "Letter To A Christian Nation"
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#60
RE: Imagine this...
(May 5, 2021 at 9:53 am)Drich Wrote: remember luke was a secular historian till he was conscripted. 

Even by the standards of his own day, the author of Luke was not a historian.  For starters, he never identifies himself, nor does he identify his sources, such as his copying from the Gospel of Mark and the missing, but likely extant, document known as 'Q'.

From the perspective of critical, modern scholarship, Luke was likely written in the last quarter of the first century, perhaps even being composed in the early second century, and even then, the document appears to have undergone some more revisions.  As I have pointed out to you before, the author of Luke got some of his facts wrong:

Wikipedia -- Census of Quirinius

Now, this, in and of itself, does not mean that the author of Luke was not an historian (not identifying himself or his sources are what make him not an historian), but it does cast doubt on his thoroughness in researching and compiling his sources.  In addition, Luke, as virtually all modern scholars (both believing or not) acknowledge, changed the text of Mark.  Good historians, including Josephus, were much more faithful to their sources, and in those instances where they disagreed with the individuals behind those sources, they would state the what and why that was behind their disagreements.  Luke does none of that.
And without delay Peter went quickly out of the synagogue (assembly) and went unto the house of Marcellus, where Simon lodged: and much people followed him...And Peter turned unto the people that followed him and said: Ye shall now see a great and marvellous wonder. And Peter seeing a great dog bound with a strong chain, went to him and loosed him, and when he was loosed the dog received a man's voice and said unto Peter: What dost thou bid me to do, thou servant of the unspeakable and living God? Peter said unto him: Go in and say unto Simon in the midst of his company: Peter saith unto thee, Come forth abroad, for thy sake am I come to Rome, thou wicked one and deceiver of simple souls. And immediately the dog ran and entered in, and rushed into the midst of them that were with Simon, and lifted up his forefeet and in a loud voice said: Thou Simon, Peter the servant of Christ who standeth at the door saith unto thee: Come forth abroad, for thy sake am I come to Rome, thou most wicked one and deceiver of simple souls. And when Simon heard it, and beheld the incredible sight, he lost the words wherewith he was deceiving them that stood by, and all of them were amazed. (The Acts of Peter, 9)
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