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Current time: October 17, 2021, 10:49 am

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Imagine this...
#31
RE: Imagine this...
The Testimonium Flavianum was an later insertion.  None of the 2nd century apologists who cite Josephus mention it, though it would have greatly helped their case.  Josephus wrote that people were mad at Herod for killing John the Baptist.  Some 3rd or 4th century church father, such as Eusebius, noted the glaring omission and added the ill-fitting blurb about Jesus.

The gospel of John was more likely written around or even after 120.
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#32
RE: Imagine this...
(May 3, 2021 at 12:45 pm)Nomad Wrote:
(May 3, 2021 at 4:50 am)WinterHold Wrote: Maybe Josephus was anti-Christian, or just denying the truth out of hatred for Jesus's religion.

Given the fact that Josephus documented every wandering mendicant who claimed messiahdom in great detail, no matter how minor or how deranged, your hypotheses do not hold water. The simplest explanation is still the most likely, viz Josephus didn't talk about Yeshua bar Yosef because he didn't hear of him, likely because either a) he did not exist, or b) was so minor that even somebody as prone to gossip as Josephus didn't hear of him.

My preference is for Option B.
And without delay Peter went quickly out of the synagogue (assembly) and went unto the house of Marcellus, where Simon lodged: and much people followed him...And Peter turned unto the people that followed him and said: Ye shall now see a great and marvellous wonder. And Peter seeing a great dog bound with a strong chain, went to him and loosed him, and when he was loosed the dog received a man's voice and said unto Peter: What dost thou bid me to do, thou servant of the unspeakable and living God? Peter said unto him: Go in and say unto Simon in the midst of his company: Peter saith unto thee, Come forth abroad, for thy sake am I come to Rome, thou wicked one and deceiver of simple souls. And immediately the dog ran and entered in, and rushed into the midst of them that were with Simon, and lifted up his forefeet and in a loud voice said: Thou Simon, Peter the servant of Christ who standeth at the door saith unto thee: Come forth abroad, for thy sake am I come to Rome, thou most wicked one and deceiver of simple souls. And when Simon heard it, and beheld the incredible sight, he lost the words wherewith he was deceiving them that stood by, and all of them were amazed. (The Acts of Peter, 9)
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#33
RE: Imagine this...
(May 3, 2021 at 1:49 pm)Ranjr Wrote: The Testimonium Flavianum was an later insertion.  None of the 2nd century apologists who cite Josephus mention it, though it would have greatly helped their case.  Josephus wrote that people were mad at Herod for killing John the Baptist.  Some 3rd or 4th century church father, such as Eusebius, noted the glaring omission and added the ill-fitting blurb about Jesus.

The gospel of John was more likely written around or even after 120.

Photios 1 Patriarch of Constantinople flat out said that Eusebius put it in there, and he had an original Hebrew copy to back it up.

And when one of the most powerful thinkers in the orthodox church after the church fathers calls out bullshit, you know it's bullshit.
As a species, we are fucked. To the next generation, I offer my inadequate apologies.
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#34
RE: Imagine this...
(May 3, 2021 at 3:04 pm)Nomad Wrote:
(May 3, 2021 at 1:49 pm)Ranjr Wrote: The Testimonium Flavianum was an later insertion.  None of the 2nd century apologists who cite Josephus mention it, though it would have greatly helped their case.  Josephus wrote that people were mad at Herod for killing John the Baptist.  Some 3rd or 4th century church father, such as Eusebius, noted the glaring omission and added the ill-fitting blurb about Jesus.

The gospel of John was more likely written around or even after 120.

Photios 1 Patriarch of Constantinople flat out said that Eusebius put it in there, and he had an original Hebrew copy to back it up.

And when one of the most powerful thinkers in the orthodox church after the church fathers calls out bullshit, you know it's bullshit.

Not to mention that the interpolation/forgery is lacking in Arabic manuscripts.
And without delay Peter went quickly out of the synagogue (assembly) and went unto the house of Marcellus, where Simon lodged: and much people followed him...And Peter turned unto the people that followed him and said: Ye shall now see a great and marvellous wonder. And Peter seeing a great dog bound with a strong chain, went to him and loosed him, and when he was loosed the dog received a man's voice and said unto Peter: What dost thou bid me to do, thou servant of the unspeakable and living God? Peter said unto him: Go in and say unto Simon in the midst of his company: Peter saith unto thee, Come forth abroad, for thy sake am I come to Rome, thou wicked one and deceiver of simple souls. And immediately the dog ran and entered in, and rushed into the midst of them that were with Simon, and lifted up his forefeet and in a loud voice said: Thou Simon, Peter the servant of Christ who standeth at the door saith unto thee: Come forth abroad, for thy sake am I come to Rome, thou most wicked one and deceiver of simple souls. And when Simon heard it, and beheld the incredible sight, he lost the words wherewith he was deceiving them that stood by, and all of them were amazed. (The Acts of Peter, 9)
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#35
RE: Imagine this...
At work.

So we'll put it next to another book but we'll not define a category for the books other than "They influence folk."

At tad late in responding but better late than never.
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#36
RE: Imagine this...
(May 3, 2021 at 2:51 pm)Jehanne Wrote:
(May 3, 2021 at 12:45 pm)Nomad Wrote: Given the fact that Josephus documented every wandering mendicant who claimed messiahdom in great detail, no matter how minor or how deranged, your hypotheses do not hold water.  The simplest explanation is still the most likely, viz Josephus didn't talk about Yeshua bar Yosef because he didn't hear of him, likely because either a) he did not exist, or b) was so minor that even somebody as prone to gossip as Josephus didn't hear of him.

My preference is for Option B.

Which would be a problem for any historical jesus candidate.  He's a man, allegedly, known far and wide. Take away every miracle, even the mundade miracles - and the candidates fail on account of obscurity, still.
It's bad for the rest of the world when americans are paid so little they can only afford chocolate mined by child slaves and clothes made in overseas sweatshops. - Robyn Pennacchia
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#37
RE: Imagine this...
(May 3, 2021 at 4:10 pm)Peebo-Thuhlu Wrote: So we'll put it next to another book but we'll not define a category for the books other than "They influence folk."

That's certainly not what I said.
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#38
RE: Imagine this...
(May 3, 2021 at 4:17 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote:
(May 3, 2021 at 2:51 pm)Jehanne Wrote: My preference is for Option B.

Which would be a problem for any historical jesus candidate.  He's a man, allegedly, known far and wide.  Take away every miracle, even the mundade miracles - and the candidates fail on account of obscurity, still.

But if you take away the miracles, then the pigs ran down the cliff and drown themselves for NO REASON.  Panic
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#39
RE: Imagine this...
(May 3, 2021 at 2:51 pm)Jehanne Wrote:
(May 3, 2021 at 12:45 pm)Nomad Wrote: Given the fact that Josephus documented every wandering mendicant who claimed messiahdom in great detail, no matter how minor or how deranged, your hypotheses do not hold water.  The simplest explanation is still the most likely, viz Josephus didn't talk about Yeshua bar Yosef because he didn't hear of him, likely because either a) he did not exist, or b) was so minor that even somebody as prone to gossip as Josephus didn't hear of him.

My preference is for Option B.

I personally prefer A, but that's largely my prejudices. We have insufficient evidence to say what, aside from the fact that we can say Yeshua wasn't the son of Yhwh.

(May 3, 2021 at 4:57 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote:
(May 3, 2021 at 4:17 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Which would be a problem for any historical jesus candidate.  He's a man, allegedly, known far and wide.  Take away every miracle, even the mundade miracles - and the candidates fail on account of obscurity, still.

But if you take away the miracles, then the pigs ran down the cliff and drown themselves for NO REASON.  Panic

Actually if you take the story at face value, the pigs ran at least thirty miles, most of it uphill to drown themselves in the sea of Galillee.
As a species, we are fucked. To the next generation, I offer my inadequate apologies.
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#40
RE: Imagine this...
(May 3, 2021 at 4:57 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote:
(May 3, 2021 at 4:17 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Which would be a problem for any historical jesus candidate.  He's a man, allegedly, known far and wide.  Take away every miracle, even the mundade miracles - and the candidates fail on account of obscurity, still.

But if you take away the miracles, then the pigs ran down the cliff and drown themselves for NO REASON.  Panic

No pigs ever ran down any hill.  Not for no reason, not for any reason. The pig bit isn't part of any of the historical jesus candidates.
It's bad for the rest of the world when americans are paid so little they can only afford chocolate mined by child slaves and clothes made in overseas sweatshops. - Robyn Pennacchia
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