You realize that huly buuks are just written by humans correct? Humans that had no idea why the earth shook, or where the sun went.

(July 2, 2021 at 9:44 am)WinterHold Wrote: You don't have the right to harm homosexuals, just like you don't have the right to harm any person doing what they want.
Banning homosexuality should be "self inflicted"; I mean there is no "consequences" on the society from the same sex relationship.

As a Muslim, there is not a single verse saying that "gays" should be punished; 

There is not a single verse about the punishment for consuming alcoholic beverages, either. It's widely known that the punishment for that is forty lashes.
You are an adept of Quranism, you only accept what is in the Qur'an and reject all major collections of authentic hadiths. That's the only reason why you consider homosexuality to be a banal sin. Rigorously, no sin is banal in Islam

(July 2, 2021 at 9:44 am)WinterHold Wrote: But search the whole Quran; flip its pages; read it once and twice then thrice: there is no penalty that should be implemented from a "government" towards gay people.

Um.. You're not taking Muhammad's sayings into account, which are, for most Muslims who take their religion seriously, a reference for jurisprudence, in addition to the Qur'an.

(July 2, 2021 at 9:44 am)WinterHold Wrote: God told people that homosexuality is a wrong; terrible deed. But so as impregnating women and leave poor bastard kids to battle the world without a family, so as the filthy religious institutions that control the masses like sheep to rob their money, just like countries like the U.S and Russia stacking atomic weapons, just like bankers who rape humanity out of its naturally owned fortunes given to them by God.

You're free to open a thread about "leaving poor bastard kids to battle the world" (???), this thread is about homosexuality, so we're going to discuss homosexuality

---

(July 1, 2021 at 10:42 am)vulcanlogician Wrote: The thing about this essay is that it shows just how slimy WLC is.

I've listened to entire lectures from this guy... philosophy lectures, not apologetics or debate. In these, he well demonstrates that he can do critical thinking.

He knows better than to cite Leviticus as reasoning for adopting a particular attitude toward homosexual acts. And he knows that the vast majority of Christians don't even care about what the Bible says... they just want their bigotry excused.

WLC said in his debate with Hitchens that he cares about what's true, not about what the majority of christians say or do. Leviticus clearly condemns the homosexual act. The discussion really should stop here for a christian. It's a non-starter and there is no way around forbidding it

(July 2, 2021 at 3:04 pm)Drich Wrote:

(July 2, 2021 at 2:31 pm)Fake Messiah Wrote: That's not the point. You again quote my post without reading it or, more probably, you are too stupid to understand what you read because the post says "even if he is right about the genes how mental do you have to be, to be bothered if someone is happier in life if he/ she chooses a homosexual way of life?"

It's not that there are no genes for homosexuality, it's that you are an idiot incapable of basic understanding of what you read, and yet you want to participate in the conversation like a pompous asshole.

do you really need me to address the mundane poorly thought out question you presented? because once i do my op here addresses the crux of the issue. Something several other posters have already touched on.

To answer your op, the people are 'bothered here' are not those in the church but those outside of the church. As most do not care that God forbids such a relationship. you people are the one's with a chip, because you assume the position that the church/god has no say in your life. and you will say do quote anything of authority to demonstrate this.

So now that i took the time to directly answer your op, your return volly will double down and prove what i said. then you can now go back and reread my op for that answer.

sorry to skip ahead.. i can do this with some people but i forgot who it was i was speaking with. your avatar should be a sufficient reminder that i need to hold your hand and slowly explain through everything. other wise you get angry confused and lost.

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(July 2, 2021 at 2:44 pm)tackattack Wrote: So to restate your implied stance for clarity drich,

Genetics have zero affect on homosexuality?

none.. Gentics have less than 0 affect on homosexuality. Clear enough? want to ask a follow up?

no?
the allow me to preface this statement.
 Your question is not the same as asking "drich do you think i can find some tertiary article that contradicts you? or Drich do you think i can find some report funded by a special interest group that proves you wrong?" I am sure you can. both accounts..  but again sport finish my op... Just as the excuse for fat shaming is "genetics don't put donuts in your mouth" your non existent gay gene/genetics do even less.

---

for the record i DO NOT CARE what gay people do. So long as they do not teach it as being scripturally acceptable. which is not limited to gay people. any sin taught as permissible gets the same response. my view is if your going to sin, there is no need to hid or pretend it's ok. just sin.. tell yourself whatever you like. tell yourself there is no go there is no sin, just don't lie to yourself and say this is not sin in the eyes of god. as there is no way back from that.

---

(July 2, 2021 at 2:56 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: Not to derail all the gay-hating, just want to reiterate that Drich has my permission to PM me his patent number.

Boru

That's not the offer. The offer is PM me your email address and i will send the patent that was filed which includes the number, and all the other paper work including lawyer and correspondence stating the file was accepted and was available to be licensed. so long as none of that info is shared personal business or otherwise.

because the patent number means nothing without confirmation that it is my patent. the filing paper work proves this. but again far too much personal info to post or share openly.

you can confirm it is all legit, do not share details.

You "as most do not care that God forbids such a relationship.'

Focus on that Drich, right there.  See, not everyone clings to ancient mythology like you. 

Pretty sure you would not spend much time on claims of C3PO and R2D2 getting it on and bitching a fit that Yoda said that was "against the force".

Life isn't that complicated Drich. You find gay sex yucky. SURPRISE even heterosexual supporters of LGBT are not into that. The difference is that we don't project our own desires on others as if those different than us are evil.

Yes the sane DO  have a chip on our shoulder. Sex is simple, CONCENT, and if the people involved in that consent are happy and nobody is being abused, then it is NONE OF YOUR FUCKING BUSINESS.

I could not give a fuck less what you claim a mythological God you claim is real allegedly "said."

God has no say in my life just like Yoda and Spiderman have no say in my life.

(July 2, 2021 at 6:37 pm)Klorophyll Wrote:

(July 2, 2021 at 9:44 am)WinterHold Wrote: You don't have the right to harm homosexuals, just like you don't have the right to harm any person doing what they want.
Banning homosexuality should be "self inflicted"; I mean there is no "consequences" on the society from the same sex relationship.

As a Muslim, there is not a single verse saying that "gays" should be punished; 

There is not a single verse about the punishment for consuming alcoholic beverages, either. It's widely known that the punishment for that is forty lashes.
You are an adept of Quranism, you only accept what is in the Qur'an and reject all major collections of authentic hadiths. That's the only reason why you consider homosexuality to be a banal sin. Rigorously, no sin is banal in Islam

(July 2, 2021 at 9:44 am)WinterHold Wrote: But search the whole Quran; flip its pages; read it once and twice then thrice: there is no penalty that should be implemented from a "government" towards gay people.

Um.. You're not taking Muhammad's sayings into account, which are, for most Muslims who take their religion seriously, a reference for jurisprudence, in addition to the Qur'an.

(July 2, 2021 at 9:44 am)WinterHold Wrote: God told people that homosexuality is a wrong; terrible deed. But so as impregnating women and leave poor bastard kids to battle the world without a family, so as the filthy religious institutions that control the masses like sheep to rob their money, just like countries like the U.S and Russia stacking atomic weapons, just like bankers who rape humanity out of its naturally owned fortunes given to them by God.

You're free to open a thread about "leaving poor bastard kids to battle the world" (???), this thread is about homosexuality, so we're going to discuss homosexuality

---

(July 1, 2021 at 10:42 am)vulcanlogician Wrote: The thing about this essay is that it shows just how slimy WLC is.

I've listened to entire lectures from this guy... philosophy lectures, not apologetics or debate. In these, he well demonstrates that he can do critical thinking.

He knows better than to cite Leviticus as reasoning for adopting a particular attitude toward homosexual acts. And he knows that the vast majority of Christians don't even care about what the Bible says... they just want their bigotry excused.

WLC said in his debate with Hitchens that he cares about what's true, not about what the majority of christians say or do. Leviticus clearly condemns the homosexual act. The discussion really should stop here for a christian. It's a non-starter and there is no way around forbidding it

The case has often been made that Christians are no longer bound by Levitical law (due to Jesus fulfilling it), so the proper attitude toward homosexuality by Christians would be based on what Jesus has to say about it. Here it is, in full:

Quote:.

Boru

(July 2, 2021 at 7:12 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: The case has often been made that Christians are no longer bound by Levitical law (due to Jesus fulfilling it), so the proper attitude toward homosexuality by Christians would be based on what Jesus has to say about it. Here it is, in full:

Even absent Leviticus, homosexuality is explicitly condemned in three passages from the NT. And isn't Leviticus the unaltered word of God ? Are christians supposed to act against this Levitical law after Jesus fulfilled it ??

(July 2, 2021 at 6:37 pm)Klorophyll Wrote:

(July 2, 2021 at 9:44 am)WinterHold Wrote: You don't have the right to harm homosexuals, just like you don't have the right to harm any person doing what they want.
Banning homosexuality should be "self inflicted"; I mean there is no "consequences" on the society from the same sex relationship.

As a Muslim, there is not a single verse saying that "gays" should be punished; 

There is not a single verse about the punishment for consuming alcoholic beverages, either. It's widely known that the punishment for that is forty lashes.
You are an adept of Quranism, you only accept what is in the Qur'an and reject all major collections of authentic hadiths. That's the only reason why you consider homosexuality to be a banal sin. Rigorously, no sin is banal in Islam

(July 2, 2021 at 9:44 am)WinterHold Wrote: But search the whole Quran; flip its pages; read it once and twice then thrice: there is no penalty that should be implemented from a "government" towards gay people.

Um.. You're not taking Muhammad's sayings into account, which are, for most Muslims who take their religion seriously, a reference for jurisprudence, in addition to the Qur'an.

(July 2, 2021 at 9:44 am)WinterHold Wrote: God told people that homosexuality is a wrong; terrible deed. But so as impregnating women and leave poor bastard kids to battle the world without a family, so as the filthy religious institutions that control the masses like sheep to rob their money, just like countries like the U.S and Russia stacking atomic weapons, just like bankers who rape humanity out of its naturally owned fortunes given to them by God.

You're free to open a thread about "leaving poor bastard kids to battle the world" (???), this thread is about homosexuality, so we're going to discuss homosexuality

---

(July 1, 2021 at 10:42 am)vulcanlogician Wrote: The thing about this essay is that it shows just how slimy WLC is.

I've listened to entire lectures from this guy... philosophy lectures, not apologetics or debate. In these, he well demonstrates that he can do critical thinking.

He knows better than to cite Leviticus as reasoning for adopting a particular attitude toward homosexual acts. And he knows that the vast majority of Christians don't even care about what the Bible says... they just want their bigotry excused.

WLC said in his debate with Hitchens that he cares about what's true, not about what the majority of christians say or do. Leviticus clearly condemns the homosexual act. The discussion really should stop here for a christian. It's a non-starter and there is no way around forbidding it

If you don't have a trusted source book that is revealed from God to back your sayings; then debating you is a worthless "walls of texts".

The source book I follow and debate from it is the "Quran". All Muslims agreed that it's the source book of the religion. Please keep your folklores away because "they are rejected" by me . I only discuss what all "Muslims" agreed to call "source book and a heavenly revelation".

HOMOSEXUALS ARE NOT TO BE HARMED ACCORDING TO THE QURAN.

(July 2, 2021 at 7:17 pm)Klorophyll Wrote:

(July 2, 2021 at 7:12 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: The case has often been made that Christians are no longer bound by Levitical law (due to Jesus fulfilling it), so the proper attitude toward homosexuality by Christians would be based on what Jesus has to say about it. Here it is, in full:

Even absent Leviticus, homosexuality is explicitly condemned in three passages from the NT. And isn't Leviticus the unaltered word of God ? Are christians supposed to act against this Levitical law after Jesus fulfilled it ??

The NT condemns homosexuality, but Jesus never did.

To Christians, yes, Leviticus is God’s covenant with the children of Israel. But Christians don’t live under that covenant, and never have. They live under Jesus’ ‘New Covenant’. So, since Jesus never spoke against homosexuality (Paul did, but Paul was a full-blown whackaloon), Christians are not required to condemn homosexuality.

Boru

(July 2, 2021 at 8:24 pm)WinterHold Wrote: If you don't have a trusted source book that is revealed from God to back your sayings; then debating you is a worthless "walls of texts".

I do have verses from the Qur'an to back my sayings, surprise surprise  .

Your fellow man1 is neither misguided nor astray. Nor does he speak of his own whims. 
It is only a revelation sent down ˹to him˺. (53:2-4)

Now tell me, dear Quranist, according to the verse above, anything our fellow man the prophet PBUH speaks is a revelation sent down to him. Where is the prophet's everyday speech in the Qur'an ? 

(July 2, 2021 at 8:24 pm)WinterHold Wrote: The source book I follow and debate from it is the "Quran". All Muslims agreed that it's the source book of the religion. Please keep your folklores away because "they are rejected" by me . I only discuss what all "Muslims" agreed to call "source book and a heavenly revelation".

As I told you in previous threads, the Qur'an orders you to pray, and never explains how to perform prayer, how do you reconcile this fact with :

We have revealed to you the Book as an explanation of all things, a guide, a mercy, and good news for those who ˹fully˺ submit. (16;89)

I will send you one thousand dollars if you solve this riddle based on the Qur'an alone.

(July 2, 2021 at 8:24 pm)WinterHold Wrote: HOMOSEXUALS ARE NOT TO BE HARMED ACCORDING TO THE QURAN.

Don't misrepresent my position, I don't advocate for actively prosecuting homosexuals.

(July 2, 2021 at 8:26 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: The NT condemns homosexuality, but Jesus never did.

To Christians, yes, Leviticus is God’s covenant with the children of Israel. But Christians don’t live under that covenant, and never have. They live under Jesus’ ‘New Covenant’. So, since Jesus never spoke against homosexuality (Paul did, but Paul was a full-blown whackaloon), Christians are not required to condemn homosexuality.

Well isn't the NT the word of God according to christianity ?? If what Paul wrote isn't divinely inspired, then christianity is false. I don't think many christians will agree with this. 
And if Paul is actually divinely inspired, then his sayings should be as authoritative as Jesus's ...?

(July 2, 2021 at 8:45 pm)Klorophyll Wrote:

(July 2, 2021 at 8:24 pm)WinterHold Wrote: If you don't have a trusted source book that is revealed from God to back your sayings; then debating you is a worthless "walls of texts".

I do have verses from the Qur'an to back my sayings, surprise surprise  .

Your fellow man1 is neither misguided nor astray. Nor does he speak of his own whims. 
It is only a revelation sent down ˹to him˺. (53:2-4)

Now tell me, dear Quranist, according to the verse above, anything our fellow man the prophet PBUH speaks is a revelation sent down to him. Where is the prophet's everyday speech in the Qur'an ? 

(July 2, 2021 at 8:24 pm)WinterHold Wrote: The source book I follow and debate from it is the "Quran". All Muslims agreed that it's the source book of the religion. Please keep your folklores away because "they are rejected" by me . I only discuss what all "Muslims" agreed to call "source book and a heavenly revelation".

As I told you in previous threads, the Qur'an orders you to pray, and never explains how to perform prayer, how do you reconcile this fact with :

We have revealed to you the Book as an explanation of all things, a guide, a mercy, and good news for those who ˹fully˺ submit. (16;89)

I will send you one thousand dollars if you solve this riddle based on the Qur'an alone.

(July 2, 2021 at 8:24 pm)WinterHold Wrote: HOMOSEXUALS ARE NOT TO BE HARMED ACCORDING TO THE QURAN.

Don't misrepresent my position, I don't advocate for actively prosecuting homosexuals.

(July 2, 2021 at 8:26 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: The NT condemns homosexuality, but Jesus never did.

To Christians, yes, Leviticus is God’s covenant with the children of Israel. But Christians don’t live under that covenant, and never have. They live under Jesus’ ‘New Covenant’. So, since Jesus never spoke against homosexuality (Paul did, but Paul was a full-blown whackaloon), Christians are not required to condemn homosexuality.

Well isn't the NT the word of God according to christianity ?? If what Paul wrote isn't divinely inspired, then christianity is false. I don't think many christians will agree with this. 
And if Paul is actually divinely inspired, then his sayings should be as authoritative as Jesus's ...?

Judaism is false. Christianity is false. Islam is false. Get it?
Admittedly, some of those books of faith yield some truths (as would even some advice column, like Ann Landers used to write), but as far as a "god", they are vapid.

And here are two examples of Islam are slamming each other, based on their interpretation! 

(July 2, 2021 at 6:22 pm)Klorophyll Wrote:

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(July 1, 2021 at 10:44 am)tackattack Wrote: you are all about the act. You are passing judgement on "people" and comparing them to the sodmites by inferring they are exceedingly sinful. Id' like to point out something to you, All have sinned. We are all sodomites (pursuing unnatural desires) and wicked and rebel against God. We don't do what is good for us, even if we know better.

I am sorry but where, exactly, did I judge anyone here? I simply quoted your bible, you bible is extremely direct and clear about sodomy, and you should be ashame of yourself for even trying to apologize for such a trivially forbidden act;

22 You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination. (Leviticus 18:22)

26 For this reason God gave them up to ddishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; 27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, ymen committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.
(Romans 1:26-27)

9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, (1 Corinthians, 6:9)

So, unless one is blind (or OT isn't the word of God), homosexuality is an obvious non-starter for any christian. The question now is, are you honest enough to acknowledge what your bible says and explicitly condemn the act?

And how exactly do you get from sin to sodomy ? In any case, you are free of course to label yourself a sodomite. 

(July 1, 2021 at 10:44 am)tackattack Wrote: For instance you are a very loud clanging cymbal right now causing all this discord against believers and God by not practicing any aspect of love.

Did the believers you're referring to read the passages above ? Are you sure you're not defending homosexuality just because it's lawful in your country ?

(July 1, 2021 at 10:44 am)tackattack Wrote: 1. Homosexual sex is condemned by Southern Baptists, this is one of the tenants I disagree with.

Homosexual sex is condemned by your bible, do you disagree with your bible?

---

To answer your questions:
1. You're being judgmental when you say things like "Oh... I see. So my argument from nature wasn't quite dead... right? Now repeat after me : riding men is bad, it's disgusting."
2. My Bible is quite clear on lots of things, but monogamous, consensual homosexual intercourse isn't one of them.
3. I humbly acknowledge that you typed the correct english translation of 1 Corinthians 6:9. There are a few others as well you missed. If I were a cherry picking literalist that only had that verse though I would be hard pressed to disagree with you and concede. That is not the case however and we obviously have different interpretations of the scripture in it's entirety, or you're cherry picking what you think supports your views. I clearly laid out my beliefs in post 143. We could debate the specifics and have an exegetical study on biblical homosexuality, but I feel it's been done, and this isn't the thread  for it.
(aside)4. I'm not particularly fond of you putting a fellow believer in the position of I'm either blind or God is a liar. It isn't really becoming during a civil discussion in the pit of vipers we find ourselves.
5.  This isn't about me or my beliefs, because you clearly missed the real point I was trying to make in 143: This topic is titled forbidding homosexual people to Love.

It's fairly simple:
A. Either sexual orientation of every type is part of/ or informed by how we were made by God or it isn't
B. Either the people who willfully do those acts are in violation of God's commands or they aren't.

But neither of those is the actual question being posed to you or Drich. You both clearly have a problem with homosexual sex. The forum just wants to know why:
A. You don't like it because it's unnatural
B. You don't like it because you don't understand it
C. You don't like it because that's what you're told to believe
D. You don't like it because that's what you believe God means
E. You don't like it because it disgusts you
F. You don't like it because ....

From what you've both said I feel it's some combination of all of them plus some extras. The forum just wants you to be clear and upfront about your homophobia.  And all that is still an aside from the main conversation which is:

Why can't two men love each other romantically? Is it just the sex you have a problem with? What if 2 gay men, never copulated and just mutually masturbated each other? What if. they just kissed.. tons of scenarios that we can't even get to because you both are defending your bigotry and spreading a message of condemnation and bigotry. Listen I get it.. defenders of the faith and all.... but if you really believe it's God will that homosexual sex is a sin, and you believe to hate what God hates, you could have just stayed out of the thread entirely. You came in to spread your condemnation, bigotry and hate, IMO.

This back and forth is tiring and tedious. We get it you don't like homosexuals. I'd like to just press on in the thread without them and save any more comments in this train of derailment for my PM box. Night all.

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