I watched a clip from Mormon Stories this morning and became angry again over how this cult lied to me. I know, nobody else is likely to care or be interested, but I just wanted to talk about this a little bit.





This was very similar to my experience; upon hearing about things that were contrary to what I was taught growing up in the church, I immediately went to the one source I had been taught to trust: the church website. And there I found authorized and official essays the church put out "correcting" past revelations and admitting to things I had been taught were anti-Mormon propaganda(aka lies outsiders tell in order to draw us away from the truth).

It's hard to really describe the amount of trust and certainty I had in my religious leaders. It's not like a local parish or preacher might receive. I was taught that the prophet and his apostles received revelation from God to lead his one true church. I was taught that the prophet was the only one who talks directly to God. That is what made that church true. That was what made it different from a Catholic church or a Baptist church or a Presbyterian church. This church was the only one that got the full truth and had authority to lead from God.

And then these essays that the church put out in 2012 and 2013, they want to claim that my expectations of truth in leadership are too high. That my expectations for being led by God's mouthpiece directly is ignoring the fact that these men are not infallible. As if my expectations for a guy telling me what God says somehow equates to him needing to be perfect. No. But the things he says as the representative of God and the gospel better be fuckin' right and not need corrections. Otherwise, what is the point? The church is only special if it has that direct communication. Otherwise, you're no different than some well-meaning preacher of some small local chapel who tries his best for his flock based on a good feeling in his chest.

That's what still grinds my gears about that. The trying to have their cake and eat it too about church revelations and authority. It's either direct and special or it's just you praying and getting a good feeling, "God says I'm the leader, you guys. He chose me."

(July 29, 2021 at 11:46 am)Ten Wrote: I watched a clip from Mormon Stories this morning and became angry again over how this cult lied to me. I know, nobody else is likely to care or be interested, but I just wanted to talk about this a little bit.





This was very similar to my experience; upon hearing about things that were contrary to what I was taught growing up in the church, I immediately went to the one source I had been taught to trust: the church website. And there I found authorized and official essays the church put out "correcting" past revelations and admitting to things I had been taught were anti-Mormon propaganda(aka lies outsiders tell in order to draw us away from the truth).

It's hard to really describe the amount of trust and certainty I had in my religious leaders. It's not like a local parish or preacher might receive. I was taught that the prophet and his apostles received revelation from God to lead his one true church. I was taught that the prophet was the only one who talks directly to God. That is what made that church true. That was what made it different from a Catholic church or a Baptist church or a Presbyterian church. This church was the only one that got the full truth and had authority to lead from God.

And then these essays that the church put out in 2012 and 2013, they want to claim that my expectations of truth in leadership are too high. That my expectations for being led by God's mouthpiece directly is ignoring the fact that these men are not infallible. As if my expectations for a guy telling me what God says somehow equates to him needing to be perfect. No. But the things he says as the representative of God and the gospel better be fuckin' right and not need corrections. Otherwise, what is the point? The church is only special if it has that direct communication. Otherwise, you're no different than some well-meaning preacher of some small local chapel who tries his best for his flock based on a good feeling in his chest.

That's what still grinds my gears about that. The trying to have their cake and eat it too about church revelations and authority. It's either direct and special or it's just you praying and getting a good feeling, "God says I'm the leader, you guys. He chose me."

Imam, Pope, Buddhist Monk, Rabbi, Swami,  any human of any religion in the world, claiming they have a patent on human morality, is someone you should run from. 

There is no such thing as "revealed" or "prophecy" or "oracle" or even "psychic". There are just human beings making unfounded claims pretending to be superior. 

I have said it many times, if any one religion were the cure all for humanity, then why is it every nation on the face of the planet, both friend and foe, have both hospitals and prisons? Why is it Iraq and Russia and China and Australia and America have traffic lights? 

Because our socializing, our species behaviors, both good and bad, are not being handed down to us from above. There is no divine authority, or God or spirit world manipulating humans from the beyond. There are only our species superstitions giving humans a false sense of security. If we are to deal effectively with our world's problems in a more civil manor it would be wise for more humans to put our personal beliefs on the back burner in regards to religion.

I mean, I get better and better at accepting that there aren't rules and that nobody knows anything for sure. But every once in a while I have those old conversations with family members in my head and my blood boils again.

I do like Dr. John Dehlin though. He's really great. His podcast is all about holding the LDS church accountable and giving voice and visibility to those of us who have left the church. There are so many stories of true believers who have been victimized and manipulated by the church. It dispels the church's lie that those who have left were never true believers or never had faith. 

I had moments as I was leaving where I felt very alone in my crisis but hopefully those who are leaving now can find his podcast and not feel that way.

(July 29, 2021 at 12:56 pm)Ten Wrote: I mean, I get better and better at accepting that there aren't rules and that nobody knows anything for sure. But every once in a while I have those old conversations with family members in my head and my blood boils again.

I do like Dr. John Dehlin though. He's really great. His podcast is all about holding the LDS church accountable and giving voice and visibility to those of us who have left the church. There are so many stories of true believers who have been victimized and manipulated by the church. It dispels the church's lie that those who have left were never true believers or never had faith. 

I had moments as I was leaving where I felt very alone in my crisis but hopefully those who are leaving now can find his podcast and not feel that way.

Whenever you have "doubts" or feel "stumped" ask yourself the following. " What was my life like 13.8 billion years ago?" Then, "What will my life be like 5 billion years from now?".

The harsh truth is that there is only now. Now is important, while we are alive for sure. But humans would do better to stop inserting the bullshit idea that our individual cognitions will survive our body/brain death. The comfort I find in the only life I have, is that the atoms in me now were the result of the death of stars prior to our current star. I also find comfort in knowing, even after my finite cognition is gone, the atoms in me will move onto other things. Don't get me wrong, I DO NOT believe in the bullshit of reincarnation. I fully accept that when I die I will no longer exist. But even with those whom will survive me, and remember me, after my death, time will take all life on this planet, be it by our own hands, or by a comet, or meteor, but ultimately the sun. There will be no memory of me, or any rich or poor person in human history. 

But the good thing about our finite existence, is that we can, while we are alive, enjoy the now, the only finite now we have. You go to a movie knowing it will end, but you still go. You go to a music concert knowing it plays a last song, but you still go. You go to a sporting event, knowing one team will win, and one will lose, but you still go. You read a good book, knowing it has a last page, but you still read it.

I find the idea of personal eternity cheapens the one life I have. I have no desire to be forever. I have a desire to live as long as I can while I am still happy and in good health. But beyond that, I know the universe never cared about me, and does not need me. I don't see that acceptance as fatalistic. It is just a recognition that the ride always ends. It is also why I cannot understand why rich people pay 20 or 30 k for first class airline tickets. The plane lands at the same time no matter if you sit at the front of the plane or the back of the plane. And first class still shares the same smelly bathrooms as coach. And if something goes wrong 30k up nobody is going to give a shit about what you make or where you live. Everyone is going to think about surviving. 

Point is, life is, and that is it. You only get one.

Does it concern you that due to their attachment( in your mind) to Mormon belief- you’re throwing out valid or useful things by association?

No rules, no one knows anything for sure? This….because Mormons lied to you?

(July 29, 2021 at 12:56 pm)Ten Wrote: I mean, I get better and better at accepting that there aren't rules and that nobody knows anything for sure. But every once in a while I have those old conversations with family members in my head and my blood boils again.

I do like Dr. John Dehlin though. He's really great. His podcast is all about holding the LDS church accountable and giving voice and visibility to those of us who have left the church. There are so many stories of true believers who have been victimized and manipulated by the church. It dispels the church's lie that those who have left were never true believers or never had faith. 

I had moments as I was leaving where I felt very alone in my crisis but hopefully those who are leaving now can find his podcast and not feel that way.

It isn't to say there are not "rules". Socializing are what many species do to form bonding and there are social structures that come from that socializing. 

I think a better way of thinking about human history would be, why was slavery once acceptable but now is not? Why did so many think that what Hitler did was moral, or what Stalin did was moral? Neither of them would have gained power if they did not garner the support of their followers and convinced them what they were doing was moral.

Ultimately evolution and the universe does not care what wins. It does not care if cruelty or compassion win. But at least with our species, we do have a high level of cognition no other species has, and in that context, we can chose how we interact with our fellow species.

(July 29, 2021 at 2:32 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Does it concern you that due to their attachment( in your mind) to Mormon belief- you’re throwing out valid or useful things by association?

No rules, no one knows anything for sure?  This….because Mormons lied to you?

Well, being lied to tends to piss people off. Then, once you realize you've been systematically fed lies for years, I think it's super healthy to engage skepticism of this kind. You have to untangle the hose, so to speak, so that reality can start flowing through once again. It's a process.

In the final analysis, no one does know anything for sure. 

As for rules, whatever "rules" there may be follow from whatever genuinely is true. If you have a bunch of shitty rules scrawled across your chalkboard, the first step is to erase the damn thing. From there, you try to figure out what the genuine rules might be and write them down as you confirm them.

(July 30, 2021 at 12:58 am)vulcanlogician Wrote: Well, being lied to tends to piss people off. Then, once you realize you've been systematically fed lies for years, I think it's super healthy to engage skepticism of this kind. You have to untangle the hose, so to speak, so that reality can start flowing through once again. It's a process.

In the final analysis, no one does know anything for sure. 

As for rules, whatever "rules" there may be follow from whatever genuinely is true. If you have a bunch of shitty rules scrawled across your chalkboard, the first step is to erase the damn thing. From there, you try to figure out what the genuine rules might be and write them down as you confirm them.

Thank you, vulcan, for understanding the core of what I was getting at. Yes, I am talking about embracing skepticism, not an existential rebellion or free for all.

@Nudger

I have also posted my atheism conversion story, so, no, it wasn't just straight from Mormonism to atheism because "I was/am angry." There was a process. My skepticism chewed up Christianity and spit it out in the end, no matter how much in my heart I had wanted to still love Jesus. I still live with Mormons, so, I know the value of their moral system and I have almost died trying to follow their fairytales. I think it is better to believe in as many true things in possible in order to construct and make my own personal rules. You think very poorly and low of me and you seem to like to come into topics where I am to give the most uncharitable takes. This will truly be the last response I give to you.

(July 29, 2021 at 1:36 pm)Brian37 Wrote: The harsh truth is that there is only now. Now is important, while we are alive for sure. But humans would do better to stop inserting the bullshit idea that our individual cognitions will survive our body/brain death. 

Your position is based on incredulity. Because you can't imagine a life besides this one, there is no other life. It's a stupid non-sequitur and you know it.

(July 29, 2021 at 1:36 pm)Brian37 Wrote: But the good thing about our finite existence, is that we can, while we are alive, enjoy the now, the only finite now we have. 

It's impossible to enjoy anything if our cognition was actually capable of understanding literal non-existence. We are almost wired to believe in an afterlife and this fact seems to be on the side of theism. Research shows that children are wired to give teleological interpreations for everything they see. Even if we accept some evolutionary explanation of this, it doesn't explain away that it could be the hallmark of a designer. That's what would one expect from a designed human being, that their brain just tilts towards the designer hypothesis.

A moron prophet, nothing ne....... oh, you said mormon, my bad.