(August 6, 2021 at 10:45 am)WinterHold Wrote:

(August 6, 2021 at 10:41 am)Angrboda Wrote: From the article you cite, "Commonly known as the ‘fourth state of matter’, in the opinion of many astrophysicists, it is the very ‘first’ state since it was the first to form immediately after the Big Bang," and "Plasma is the highest energy state of matter."  Plasma is a state of matter, not something other than matter.  Even your own article refutes you.  You're as bad as Drich.

In the follow up comment I wrote:

https://atheistforums.org/thread-63119-p...pid2053005

Quote:What prevents me from agreeing that plasma is actually "matter" is that it is not a long lasting state of matter, look here:

Thank you.

And your objection that it isn't matter because in some cases it's not long-lasting is an irrelevant bit of twaddle as lasting a long time is not a part of the definition of matter. This is like the No True Scotsman argument, adding things that aren't a part of the definition and then claiming it doesn't meet the definition because of this thing you added. It still meets the definition and therefore is still matter. So, no, your latest attempt to defend your documented stupidity doesn't work. Fail again. Your disagreement with the basic definitions of science doesn't make it not matter, it just makes you stupid.

You're welcome, shit for brains.

I must have engaged in thousands of debates (er, arguments?) with Christians over the decades and their arguments are almost always just variations of the same tropes. The few times I've engaged with Muslims yields very different ideas (er, crazy opinions?). My unfamiliarity with Islam prevents me from fully understanding the reason this is so, but they often root their ideas in gross misunderstandings of science/nature, almost to the point of comedy (current thread no exception). It's quite sad given that the people of Mesopotamia were once a strong force for scientific learning.

(August 6, 2021 at 9:47 am)HappySkeptic Wrote:

(August 6, 2021 at 8:23 am)vulcanlogician Wrote: I've always said that property dualism (or aspect dualism) isn't that bad.

It simply says that there is physical properties and nonphysical properties. Our mental experiences, like the image of a coffee cup in front of you... has mental properties. After all, the "image" of the coffee cup that your brain produces isn't a physical object with physical properties.

I've also found criticisms of property dualism lacking. Property dualism isn't an ambitious theory. It doesn't posit some other kind of substance. It just says there is something distinct about mental experiences.

Occam's razor has me preferring materialism, but I still think property dualism is an okay theory of mind.

I just read about aspect dualism.  Basically it says that mind and matter as aspects of something else.

As a mystical position, positing "something else" as an explanation for the what we CAN perceive is a cop-out.  On the other hand, if mind comes from matter, and matter comes from something more fundamental, then I guess you could say that both come from something else.

I am drawn to the model that information is more fundamental than matter.  I don't know if it is the "most" fundamental -- it probably isn't.  If information is more fundamental than matter, then what is the problem with mind coming from matter?  Mind is about information processing, in way that produces the impression of a "self".

"Information" when used this way seems highly Platonic without any better way of approaching the ancient dilemmas around concepts like universals, Ideas, and essenses.

(August 6, 2021 at 10:30 am)WinterHold Wrote:

(August 6, 2021 at 5:08 am)vulcanlogician Wrote: Solid, liquid, gas, and plasma are the states of MATTER.

It's still matter regardless of which state it is in.

What I think is tripping you up, Winter, is that plasma states can break down the atomic structure. Hydrogen plasma is almost like a soup of free electrons and protons. But it is still (by definition) matter.

What prevents me from agreeing that plasma is actually "matter" is that it is not a long lasting state of matter, look here:

https://www.aps.org/publications/apsnews...matter.cfm

Quote:But what about plasma? It’s the most abundant state of matter in the universe, but plasma can’t exist for long under normal terrestrial conditions.

Essentially that's what I meant by "transitional" state: Plasma is a temporary state that superheated matter goes through: that's not "matter" -even if science said so today- but rather a "transitional state into something we didn't yet discover".

The question I would ask myself is this: what happens to matter after turning to plasma? what's the next state?

Simply because plasma doesn’t last long in a terrestrial environment doesn’t preclude it from being matter.

In a very real sense, ALL matter is in a transitional state. But what do you mean by ‘long lasting’? As we’ve agreed, the sun is a big, burning ball of plasma, and it has existed for more than four and a half billion years. It is expected to continue in this state for another five billion years. That’s more than half the current age of the universe. So, none of your silly arsed assertions that plasma isn’t matter seem to hold up.

Every physicist in the world agrees that plasma is matter, but - to you - it isn’t, ‘...even if science said so...’.

Stupid.

Boru

(August 6, 2021 at 11:53 am)Neo-Scholastic Wrote:

(August 6, 2021 at 9:47 am)HappySkeptic Wrote: I just read about aspect dualism.  Basically it says that mind and matter as aspects of something else.

As a mystical position, positing "something else" as an explanation for the what we CAN perceive is a cop-out.  On the other hand, if mind comes from matter, and matter comes from something more fundamental, then I guess you could say that both come from something else.

I am drawn to the model that information is more fundamental than matter.  I don't know if it is the "most" fundamental -- it probably isn't.  If information is more fundamental than matter, then what is the problem with mind coming from matter?  Mind is about information processing, in way that produces the impression of a "self".

"Information" when used this way seems highly Platonic without any better way of approaching the ancient dilemmas around concepts like universals, Ideas, and essenses.

That's what I thought. Maybe even a little Pythagorean.

I hear what @HappySkeptic is saying though. It's a reduction that a physicist may be prone to make. A line of criticism, though, is that it may be too reductionist. I myself am a hopeless reductionist though. So I can sympathize, lol.

(August 6, 2021 at 12:44 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote:

(August 6, 2021 at 11:53 am)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: "Information" when used this way seems highly Platonic without any better way of approaching the ancient dilemmas around concepts like universals, Ideas, and essenses.

That's what I thought. Maybe even a little Pythagorean.

I hear what @HappySkeptic  is saying though. It's a reduction that a physicist may be prone to make. A line of criticism, though, is that it may be too reductionist. I myself am a hopeless reductionist though. So I can sympathize, lol.

Well, I am a physicist, and an information-centric view of quantum mechanics makes sense.  The two most fundamental things in the quantum world are information and events.

Yes, it is reductionist.  Even if this is proven to be an entirely wrong one day, it likely doesn't matter.  I believe in emergent properties.  I just think it is interesting, and I think those who say "how can mind come from mindless matter" could ponder it.

(August 6, 2021 at 12:09 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:

(August 6, 2021 at 10:30 am)WinterHold Wrote: What prevents me from agreeing that plasma is actually "matter" is that it is not a long lasting state of matter, look here:

https://www.aps.org/publications/apsnews...matter.cfm



Essentially that's what I meant by "transitional" state: Plasma is a temporary state that superheated matter goes through: that's not "matter" -even if science said so today- but rather a "transitional state into something we didn't yet discover".

The question I would ask myself is this: what happens to matter after turning to plasma? what's the next state?

Simply because plasma doesn’t last long in a terrestrial environment doesn’t preclude it from being matter.

In a very real sense, ALL matter is in a transitional state. But what do you mean by ‘long lasting’? As we’ve agreed, the sun is a big, burning ball of plasma, and it has existed for more than four and a half billion years. It is expected to continue in this state for another five billion years. That’s more than half the current age of the universe. So, none of your silly arsed assertions that plasma isn’t matter seem to hold up.

Every physicist in the world agrees that plasma is matter, but - to you - it isn’t, ‘...even if science said so...’.

Stupid.

Boru

The sun only exists because it has a huge, almost uncountable reserve of fuel that is keeping "the plasma state" intact. Soon enough it will cease to be a ball of plasma when its fuel runs out -just like all stars-.

It is a transitional state. Time is irrelevant when the universe is what we're discussing. Billions of years are but a fraction to God after all.

(August 6, 2021 at 1:43 pm)WinterHold Wrote:

(August 6, 2021 at 12:09 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: Simply because plasma doesn’t last long in a terrestrial environment doesn’t preclude it from being matter.

In a very real sense, ALL matter is in a transitional state. But what do you mean by ‘long lasting’? As we’ve agreed, the sun is a big, burning ball of plasma, and it has existed for more than four and a half billion years. It is expected to continue in this state for another five billion years. That’s more than half the current age of the universe. So, none of your silly arsed assertions that plasma isn’t matter seem to hold up.

Every physicist in the world agrees that plasma is matter, but - to you - it isn’t, ‘...even if science said so...’.

Stupid.

Boru

The sun only exists because it has a huge, almost uncountable reserve of fuel that is keeping "the plasma state" intact. Soon enough it will cease to be a ball of plasma when its fuel runs out -just like all stars-.

It is a transitional state. Time is irrelevant when the universe is what we're discussing. Billions of years are but a fraction to God after all.

Being in a transitional state is not a disqualification. ALL matter is in a transitional state. Does water cease to be matter simply because it freezes or evaporates?

EVERYTHING made of massy particles is matter. There are no exceptions to this.

Boru

A reductionist bias is understandable. IMHO it is just that...a generally useful cognitive bias towards simplification that serves well for isolating material and effecient causes but that hurts more than it helps when thinking about intangibles.

(August 6, 2021 at 2:20 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:

(August 6, 2021 at 1:43 pm)WinterHold Wrote: The sun only exists because it has a huge, almost uncountable reserve of fuel that is keeping "the plasma state" intact. Soon enough it will cease to be a ball of plasma when its fuel runs out -just like all stars-.

It is a transitional state. Time is irrelevant when the universe is what we're discussing. Billions of years are but a fraction to God after all.

Being in a transitional state is not a disqualification. ALL matter is in a transitional state. Does water cease to be matter simply because it freezes or evaporates?

EVERYTHING made of massy particles is matter. There are no exceptions to this.

Boru

It is a disqualification. But I thought about something to declare the winner in this debate: does plasma have a gravitational pull?
If it is matter, it must have gravity. I frankly don't know the answer to that, and I seriously doubt that it's even discovered. Searched but No google results at my side.