(September 21, 2021 at 4:04 am)Nomad Wrote:

(September 15, 2021 at 10:10 am)Ahriman Wrote: We (the youth) were told only to try and convert those who were on the fence. In other words, agnostics. We were told to not even bother with atheists.

Hey liar, agnostics are not on the fence, they simply admit that they have insufficient knowledge to make a statement of fact.  In relation to a generic 'god' I am agnostoc atheist, i.e. I believe but do not know.

Good catch, @Nomad, for pointing that out.  Does @Ahriman not even know the definition of the term?

This is somewhat related.  I grew up Southern Baptist and some of that faith can be quite judgmental, if that's the right way to describe this.  When I was in 9th grade we had a group of young people visit us from another church to do some churchy activities for the day.  One of the young boys in our group was a bit silly and somewhat immature.  We all just took this as George being George, but some kids from the visiting group asked us if we knew that George was "lost".  For those not aware, this meant he was not saved and thus going to hell when he dies.  Thankfully, everyone in our group was appalled at this.

(September 18, 2021 at 11:31 am)Ahriman Wrote:

Quote:there should be no reason for Christians to be wary of atheists in their midst, asking challenging questions

I'm not a Christian, but go ahead and ask the most challenging questions you can think of. I won't stop believing in God no matter what you ask.

We know. You’ve already admitted that you know your belief is completely irrational. What’s there left to ask, other than why don’t you care about your beliefs being rationally grounded?

(September 21, 2021 at 12:46 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote:

(September 18, 2021 at 11:31 am)Ahriman Wrote: I'm not a Christian, but go ahead and ask the most challenging questions you can think of. I won't stop believing in God no matter what you ask.

We know. You’ve already admitted that you know your belief is completely irrational. What’s there left to ask, other than why don’t you care about your beliefs being rationally grounded?

I don't care about my beliefs being rationally grounded because, who said they needed to be?

(September 21, 2021 at 1:14 pm)Ahriman Wrote:

(September 21, 2021 at 12:46 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: We know. You’ve already admitted that you know your belief is completely irrational. What’s there left to ask, other than why don’t you care about your beliefs being rationally grounded?

I don't care about my beliefs being rationally grounded because, who said they needed to be?

You just did, by making an argument, you demonstrate a preference for reason. The only question is why you except your religious beliefs from your general preference.

(September 21, 2021 at 1:32 pm)Angrboda Wrote:

(September 21, 2021 at 1:14 pm)Ahriman Wrote: I don't care about my beliefs being rationally grounded because, who said they needed to be?

You just did, by making an argument, you demonstrate a preference for reason.  The only question is why you except your religious beliefs from your general preference.

Well that's simple enough. Because my religious beliefs guide my life, whereas my more general opinions are just some trifling shit.

Probably drawing a line where it doesn't exist. You appear to believe that decisions based upon your beliefs, which guide your life, are rational. That it's reasonable, for example..to seek and affirm happiness over truth. I think you're right, now you just have to let yourself be. It's pointless to try and convince people that you're a complete loon - as the argument assaults it's own premise on account of being an argument, as angrboda pointed out..and even if you succeeded....well....

I think this is one of the bigger gaps on the boards, from the pov of convos. The notion is that religious beliefs are other-than...even you, a religious person, are here arguing as much. We get apologist after apologist excusing their beliefs from these grounds. Let's run with it, though. Your religious beliefs..are irrational or a-rational..and don't need to be rational. Fine. What if some other persons religious beliefs did need to be and were rational, and were true?

(September 21, 2021 at 2:40 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Probably drawing a line where it doesn't exist.  You appear to believe that decisions based upon your beliefs, which guide your life, are rational.  That it's reasonable, for example..to seek and affirm happiness over truth.  I think you're right, now you just have to let yourself be.  It's pointless to try and convince people that you're a complete loon - as the argument assaults it's own premise on account of being an argument, as angrboda pointed out..and even if you succeeded....well....

I think this is one of the bigger gaps on the boards, from the pov of convos.  The notion is that religious beliefs are other-than...even you, a religious person, are here arguing as much.  We get apologist after apologist excusing their beliefs from these grounds.  Let's run with it, though.  Your religious beliefs..are irrational or a-rational..and don't need to be rational.  Fine.  What if some other persons religious beliefs did need to be and were rational, and were true?

Then good for them. Whatever works, is fine. It's strange how atheists demand everything be rational and "true", but they also believe that death is the permanent end. Why do they waste time/energy defending an abstract concept like rationality, if everything is just going to disappear the moment they die anyway?

That's sort of the problem. Their religious beliefs do work..and yours don't - or so you claim. You may even arrive at precisely the same conclusions, but your beliefs will be insufficient, defective, or impoverished with respect to their own - all for no added utility even beyond any metric of rational utility.

This is why I don't understand contentions to religious irrationality or arationality in principle. You gain nothing, sound like an idiot..and it's not even a genuine claim. We know you think that your beliefs make sense. You even ask about sense when you deny sense, above. My opinion, people retreat into that position not because they don't perceive their beliefs as rational, and not even because they haven't tried to insist as much - but because they realize that they have failed. It's a personal failure. Someone else could sell your beliefs to these heathens...just, not you. Soneone else could demonstrate their rational basis. Just not you. Someone else's beliefs are competent - just not yours.

Others can explicate what you wrongly insist to be irrational or arational. It's just you.

(September 21, 2021 at 2:57 pm)Ahriman Wrote: It's strange how atheists demand everything be rational and "true", but they also believe that death is the permanent end. Why do they waste time/energy defending an abstract concept like rationality, if everything is just going to disappear the moment they die anyway?

Because we believe that this is the only life we ever get.

Because we don't want to waste it.

Because it has value to us right here and now.

And because rationality isn't all that abstract - it points us towards myriad truths about the world and gives us a solid tool for building a fulfilling evidence-based life.

Wishful thinking may feel better, but it's vaporware.

(September 21, 2021 at 3:03 pm)Astreja Wrote:

(September 21, 2021 at 2:57 pm)Ahriman Wrote: It's strange how atheists demand everything be rational and "true", but they also believe that death is the permanent end. Why do they waste time/energy defending an abstract concept like rationality, if everything is just going to disappear the moment they die anyway?

Because we believe that this is the only life we ever get.

Because we don't want to waste it.

Because it has value to us right here and now.

And because rationality isn't all that abstract - it points us towards myriad truths about the world and gives us a solid tool for building a fulfilling evidence-based life.

Wishful thinking may feel better, but it's vaporware.

If you only had one life to live, then wishful thinking would be the logically correct choice.