(October 25, 2021 at 6:18 pm)Oldandeasilyconfused Wrote:

(October 25, 2021 at 4:37 pm)Aegon Wrote: Unless you have a painful terminal illness or you're being tortured or something, existence is always better than non-existence.

.. Perhaps have a go at explaining how you've reached this conclusion.   Imo non existence isn't an experience so may not be reasonably compared with any experience. 

I've always ben fond of this:

" I was not
  I was
  I am not
  I don't care"   (From an ancient tomb one the Via Apia not far from Rome)

(October 25, 2021 at 11:21 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote:

(October 25, 2021 at 4:37 pm)Aegon Wrote: Unless you have a painful terminal illness or you're being tortured or something, existence is always better than non-existence.

What is the justification for that proposition? What do you mean by “better”?

Pretty simple. Sunsets, good food, a perfect autumn day, getting head... all things you can't enjoy if you are not.

Perhaps I'm not deep enough in the philosophical weeds for this discussion?

(October 26, 2021 at 9:32 am)Spongebob Wrote: When you say "we" do you mean a group of specific people or are you referring to Americans in general?  I have to admit that I find myself doing this more and more but I wrote it off as just me getting older and less flexible with life, basically a coping mechanism.  I see some of my contemporaries who appear to be building more complexity into their life and it just baffles me.

That part about Christianity being pitched to captives certainly resonates with what I've studied regarding the early church and the Roman empire.  Christianity rapidly grew early on with those disenfranchised people largely because it promised a better life after this crappy one.

I mean we in the grandest sense, all of us, everyday, an overriding compulsion of our species.  All of us used to know how to make the things we needed start to finish.  A hand axe is ubiquitous.  Very few of us know, today, how even one of the simplest components of the things we need come together.  We were self sufficient but impoverished in a vast wilderness.  Now we're comparatively wealthy specialists in little domes of attention and concern.  Effectively closing the curtains on all of this wonder, all of this meaning, while lamenting our loss of connection to it.  Religious ideations appear to have started out as an explanation for that greater world, meaningfully and even truthfully informed by it (at least some of the time), a world to which we were very well adapted - but in urban populations - in this world- it ends up becoming a replacement by circumstance and necessity.  The religion of nature standing in for being in nature or a part of nature.  The religion of a better life beyond this life, the same. 

I think it's interesting that in so many versions of this story..the place we came from and the place we're going to is, for all intents and purposes, a garden.  Whatever we miss, we lost at the beginning, whatever we mean to have ......is where we're going.  We're domesticators.  It makes us happy, provides us with a purpose.  We discover meaning in all of it.  In our pets, our plants, our civilized and cultivated personalities, our penchant for euclidean geometry and manicured spaces.  Maybe this is meaning with a small m - but that's one huge small m.  It checks all the boxes..and yet...here we are - poisoning it, not living up to our potential as partners in life, with life.  Saddled with one life denying religion after another aggressively marketing itself to people who've engineered their own disaffection.

If a better life is good in the next life, it stands to reason that a better life in this life would also be as good for all of the same reasons.  If a connection to some greater thing is a crucial part of the human pysche then we can (and do) have it here...and alot of it, even within the confines of my one small pet m. You could honestly put late stage full on free market capitalism down as religion-alike. The promise of a better tomorrow excusing our dumping today.

(October 26, 2021 at 9:32 am)Spongebob Wrote:

(October 26, 2021 at 7:57 am)brewer Wrote: That first paragraph kind of pisses me off. The use of 'you'. I'd suggest that you don't know me at all. Don't project.

I meant that in a clinical way, not as a personal evaluation, so it shouldn't offend you, but what I said is basically true of everyone so I warn that you guard against rejecting the notion that you are unique among humans.  Accepting the reality that the mind is largely unknown to us and that we largely don't know much about what drives us is key to self-awareness.  People resist this knowledge at their peril.

Maybe learn to use 'me/I' instead of 'you'. You believe you have them authority to tell people when they should be offended or not? I can be offended if I choose, piss off.

No evidence for 'basically true of everyone', obvious evidence that it's true for you. Warn, schmarn away. I never stated that I was unique, just different from you which apparently does not set well. The unknown mind adds little to the discussion.

This does not mean that I don't have my own insecurities and failings, I do, they've been addressed. I just don't seem to share yours. If I say I'm happy then I'm happy (btw, I rarely state that I'm happy). You stating that it's highly likely that I'm not says more about you than me.

The mind tricking people only becomes an issue when it results in negative outcomes and behavior, for the person or people around them. How's that for clinical? (notice that I didn't use you once)

(October 26, 2021 at 10:53 am)brewer Wrote: Maybe learn to use 'me/I' instead of 'you'. You believe you have them authority to tell people when they should be offended or not? I can be offended if I choose, piss off.

No evidence for 'basically true of everyone', obvious evidence that it's true for you. Warn, schmarn away. I never stated that I was unique, just different from you which apparently does not set well. The unknown mind adds little to the discussion.

This does not mean that I don't have my own insecurities and failings, I do, they've been addressed. I just don't seem to share yours. If I say I'm happy then I'm happy (btw, I rarely state that I'm happy). You stating that it's highly likely that I'm not says more about you than me.

The mind tricking people only becomes an issue when it results in negative outcomes and behavior, for the person or people around them. How's that for clinical? (notice that I didn't use you once)

No, you're just imagining things that aren't there, such as me asserting any sort of authority of you.  I said nothing offensive or even controversial.  If you take offense to those things, it says more about you than what I said.

---

(October 26, 2021 at 10:48 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: I mean we in the grandest sense, all of us, everyday, an overriding compulsion of our species.  All of us used to know how to make the things we needed start to finish.  A hand axe is ubiquitous.  Very few of us know, today, how even one of the simplest components of the things we need come together.  We were self sufficient but impoverished in a vast wilderness.  Now we're comparatively wealthy specialists in little domes of attention and concern.  Effectively closing the curtains on all of this wonder, all of this meaning, while lamenting our loss of connection to it.  Religious ideations appear to have started out as an explanation for that greater world, meaningfully and even truthfully informed by it (at least some of the time), a world to which we were very well adapted - but in urban populations - in this world- it ends up becoming a replacement by circumstance and necessity.  The religion of nature standing in for being in nature or a part of nature.  The religion of a better life beyond this life, the same. 

I think it's interesting that in so many versions of this story..the place we came from and the place we're going to is, for all intents and purposes, a garden.  Whatever we miss, we lost at the beginning, whatever we mean to have ......is where we're going.  We're domesticators.  It makes us happy, provides us with a purpose.  We discover meaning in all of it.  In our pets, our plants, our civilized and cultivated personalities, our penchant for euclidean geometry and manicured spaces.  Maybe this is meaning with a small m - but that's one huge small m.  It checks all the boxes..and yet...here we are - poisoning it, not living up to our potential as partners in life, with life.  Saddled with one life denying religion after another aggressively marketing itself to people who've engineered their own disaffection.

If a better life is good in the next life, it stands to reason that a better life in this life would also be as good for all of the same reasons.  If a connection to some greater thing is a crucial part of the human pysche then we can (and do) have it here...and alot of it, even within the confines of my one small pet m.  You could honestly put late stage full on free market capitalism down as religion-alike.  The promise of a better tomorrow excusing our dumping today.

That's pretty deep stuff.  We do see a lot of what I would call "return to basics" in society today, like artisan this and that and build it yourself attitudes.  I suppose this could be an example.  It makes me wonder if we say similar reactions in times past, such as when the automobile began to replace horses or when factories began to draw workers from farms.

(October 26, 2021 at 10:53 am)brewer Wrote:

(October 26, 2021 at 9:32 am)Spongebob Wrote: I meant that in a clinical way, not as a personal evaluation, so it shouldn't offend you, but what I said is basically true of everyone so I warn that you guard against rejecting the notion that you are unique among humans.  Accepting the reality that the mind is largely unknown to us and that we largely don't know much about what drives us is key to self-awareness.  People resist this knowledge at their peril.

Maybe learn to use 'me/I' instead of 'you'. You believe you have them authority to tell people when they should be offended or not? I can be offended if I choose, piss off.

No evidence for 'basically true of everyone', obvious evidence that it's true for you. Warn, schmarn away. I never stated that I was unique, just different from you which apparently does not set well. The unknown mind adds little to the discussion.

This does not mean that I don't have my own insecurities and failings, I do, they've been addressed. I just don't seem to share yours. If I say I'm happy then I'm happy (btw, I rarely state that I'm happy). You stating that it's highly likely that I'm not says more about you than me.

The mind tricking people only becomes an issue when it results in negative outcomes and behavior, for the person or people around them. How's that for clinical? (notice that I didn't use you once)

I think Spongebob was pointing to what is taken as fact by psychologists (and backed up by neuroscience). We (as humans) are largely unaware of many drives within us. 

You are right to point out the "positive" side to these invisible drives, brewer. But Spongebob is also justified in saying that all humans are unaware of most of our drives.

(Apologies if I missed something earlier in the conversation. Just referring to what Spongebob said last.)

(October 26, 2021 at 12:00 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote: I think Spongebob was pointing to what is taken as fact by psychologists (and backed up by neuroscience). We (as humans) are largely unaware of many drives within us. 

You are right to point out the "positive" side to these invisible drives, brewer. But Spongebob is also justified in saying that all humans are unaware of most of our drives.

(Apologies if I missed something earlier in the conversation. Just referring to what Spongebob said last.)

You hit the nail on the head and put it more succinctly than I did.  Good summary.  We (as a species) can deny these things or hide from them all we want.  Doesn't change a thing.

(October 25, 2021 at 3:09 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote:

(October 25, 2021 at 2:31 pm)Ahriman Wrote: It isn't from any bit of scripture. It doesn't need to be.

Oh, okay. I’m convinced now. Good work.

Why do you even care what "scripture" it's from? Atheists shouldn't care about that stuff.

Atheists don't believe in gods, plenty hold to the value of scripture...but I think it was more trying to figure out whether this was a component of some religion that you're describing, or just you making shit up as you go.

(October 26, 2021 at 1:34 pm)Ahriman Wrote:

(October 25, 2021 at 3:09 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: Oh, okay. I’m convinced now. Good work.

Why do you even care what "scripture" it's from? Atheists shouldn't care about that stuff.

Because I think it’s important, that if you’re going to critique something, you be at least semi-knowledgeable of the thing that you’re critiquing. Anything else?

(October 26, 2021 at 12:00 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote: I think Spongebob was pointing to what is taken as fact by psychologists (and backed up by neuroscience). We (as humans) are largely unaware of many drives within us. 

You are right to point out the "positive" side to these invisible drives, brewer. But Spongebob is also justified in saying that all humans are unaware of most of our drives.

(Apologies if I missed something earlier in the conversation. Just referring to what Spongebob said last.)

Then SB's effort was poor and he made some assumptions and assertions that he should not have. I have little issue with the psychology, I have an issue with the presentation. Unaware of drives does not equal negative consequences. Yet I needed to be warned? I need therapy to understand? By not considering the mind the same as SB I'm in peril?

Fuck off SB.