Worse. Than. Drich.

(October 28, 2021 at 7:53 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: Worse. Than. Drich.

Ya reckon? Good to hear. I was feeling guilty*** about wanting to put him on ignore. 


***Catholic upbringing. It's said that the Jews invented guilt. That may well be true, but the Catholics made it an art form. 

Quote:Enjoying life is more important/meaningful than anything else, but it's not some grand meaning. It is very much a mundane understanding.

No, it's freaking not

(October 27, 2021 at 4:02 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Once you add referents, it's very explicitly about something, and wouldn't qualify as meaningless any longer..even if whatever meaning it has doesn't satisfy a category I'm starting to think is going to end up being True Meaning™.

I am referring to myself, lol. Maybe I just don’t understand what meaning is. If meaning arises from adding referents, then perhaps I’m thinking that in order for experience to have meaning, something else must be referring to it. Or that there must be a “next moment” in order for any reference to anything to be meaningful.

Quote:I suppose that I know that I do something; laugh with my kids, enjoy a nice glass of wine, go to the beach, spend time with my mom, etc. I’m just not sure that those things are the thing x that I doubt. Does that make sense?

Quote:and there it is.  You recognize that you're doing the thing.  It's not that you doubt that thing or doubt that apprehension or in fact have no access to it at all, it's just that all of that meaning (and whatever else we might come up with) isn't True Meaning™...whatever that is.

Yes, I find it unsatisfactory. That’s true. 

Quote:Maybe it isn't, but the position is no longer that life or experience has no meaning, but that it lacks some other thing, also called meaning.  Tell me more about that.

My mom mentioned to me today how she was visiting my grandma, who is in a nursing home and declining, and that she didn’t remember us taking her to Lake George last year with my kids, and how it was sad that we tried so hard to give her these nice memories and she doesn’t even have them anymore. My mom said, “at least she got to experience it at the time.” That felt so hollow. What is the value of any moment in time, if you don’t get to refer back to it from some other “present” moment? You said referents bear the fruit of meaning. What is the value of any single moment if it’s an inevitable eventuality that that chain of moments is going to be permanently broken? The moment my grandmother lost that memory was the moment it lost all meaning. Similarly, the moment my brain dies, it will be, to me, exactly as if I never lived a moment at all. If there is no meaningful difference or distinction between living 90 years to die happily in my sleep, and never having been born at all; and there can’t be; then how can I possibly say that life has meaning?

Quote:Not simply - alot would happen if we blipped out - things that..from the misanthropes pov..would be good...but does this make sense if there is in fact no meaning?

I mean, those would happen regardless of whether or not there was a consciousness around to assign them a meaning, good or otherwise.

Quote:It would be a very consequential fact for our little rock.  Universally meaningful?  The most important thing that ever happened anywhere anywhen, no...but still not lacking in meaningful content.

That depends on if there’s any subject still around who is capable of assigning meaning to the facts of that reality. I swear, I’m not trying to be…Hammy, Lol. And I appreciate the time and patience you put into going through this subject with me,
sincerely.

Quote:doubt that you'e crazy or wrong, just that you haven't found whatever satisfies you as True Meaning.  Maybe the world doesn't have any of it.

I suspect you may be right. 

Quote:I don't think that people appreciate what it means to suggest that life has no meaning, logically.  It's a very strong claim..that literally everyone everywhere and at all times is wrong with regards to any potential claim of meaning.

I think that’s what I’m claiming, yes. I’m still thinking on it. I’ve been thinking on it for some time. 

Quote:In sum..perhaps...you have your laughs with your kids, enjoy a nice glass of wine, go to the beach, spend time with your mother - all of this is likely to strike you as meaningful and its unclear why it wouldn't qualify as such, but there's something else you want, something else you seek, some other thing that would need to be in play before you felt that life had True Meaning.  Any ideas on what it is, even a hint?

Permanence. The ability to refer to those moments; to continue to be a subject who can apprehend events without an expiration date.

(October 28, 2021 at 7:49 pm)Ahriman Wrote: Enjoying life is more important/meaningful than anything else, but it's not some grand meaning. It is very much a mundane understanding.

Please demonstrate to us that there is such a 'grand' meaning.

How do you even know, that the grand purpose the god you believe exists, has chosen for you, is even in your best interests?

It's kind if strange to me, that the vast majority of people would rebel if their: college was chosen for them, their major, their career, their spouse, where rhey are going to live, hiw many children they would have, etc, were all chosen for them.

But they seem perfectly ok with a god choosing their purpose for them.

A dictatorship, even if run by a benevolent god, is still a dictatorship.

(October 28, 2021 at 7:53 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: Worse. Than. Drich.

Agree. At least Drich believes the batshittery he espouses. This little weasel is just a middle school liar.

(October 28, 2021 at 10:39 pm)Simon Moon Wrote:

(October 28, 2021 at 7:49 pm)Ahriman Wrote: Enjoying life is more important/meaningful than anything else, but it's not some grand meaning. It is very much a mundane understanding.

Please demonstrate to us that there is such a 'grand' meaning.

How do you even know, that the grand purpose the god you believe exists, has chosen for you, is even in your best interests?

It's kind if strange to me, that the vast majority of people would rebel if their: college was chosen for them, their major, their career,  their spouse, where rhey are going to live, hiw many children they would have, etc, were all chosen for them.

But they seem perfectly ok with a god choosing their purpose for them.

A dictatorship, even if run by a benevolent god, is still a dictatorship.

 I stopped believing in grand meanings when I was in the army. I came within a hair's breath of being sent to Vietnam. Through pure serendipity I was able to evade that fate.  It had already sunk in that I was going to a foreign  country where people would be trying to kill me.   Didn't care much for that. It was at that moment that I began to care about the sanctity of life, my life. This has always been the most precious life of all to me. Except of course while I was married. Then it was my wife's life.

In the years I was a functioning alcoholic, I was usually disappointed to wake up and have to face another day.  But now, I wake up ready to my best to savour each day.

Today I've spent about 5 hours learning about the workings of my computer router. Everything is working well, and today I understand a bit more about the why of it than I did yesterday. That's worthwhile to me, not some fantasy about a very transactional blissful afterlife.

As far as I'm concerned, it's not possible for me to offend a god of infinite love and mercy. He will love and accept me warts and all. If I'm right and he doesn't exist, I won't know will I.

(October 28, 2021 at 10:00 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: Permanence. The ability to refer to those moments; to continue to be a subject who can apprehend events without an expiration date.

If you don't live forever, in short....life has no meaning?  Meaning can't be a thing that mortal creatures can only temporarily grasp for themselves?  It has to be different than everything else?  How is this different than the claim that without a heaven, there's no meaning to life?  

Lemme ask you this, if there's no meaning in life, how would living, forever, create it?

---

(as I sit here and try to put myself into the mindset - presuming there was no meaning in or to life...I don't think it would matter if I lived a day knowing that or an eternity - it seems tragic without regards to the frame of time, but tragedy implies meaning all over again...and..arguably, an eternity would be worse...so...meh. Maybe we could split a baby? Perhaps whatever meaning there is to life, if there is any, isn't guaranteed to avoid something terrible. Death or impermanence through poor or failing health may be part of a full understanding of the meaning of a life. A human one, at least. Also, clearly, a thing you wish to avoid. What others ways do you avoid or deal with or even try to outengineer your own impermanence? I notice you've been talking about family when you consider these things. Might be related? A description of biology is a description of how genetics attempt to cheat death, as creatures we're powerfully driven to play our part in this (hopefully) eternal game of hopscotch. Good track record so far..every single one of us alive today exists in relation to an unbroken chain of life. Alot of what people talk about when they refer to meaning ends up boiling down to stuff like that. Here, to me anyway, it seems like you're commenting not that life has no meaning, but that all of the meaning it does have that you do see is cheapened or deprived in some way by our inability to hold on to it forever. I think our impermanence and frailty make us even more precious, and make those moments we can hold more deeply profound.

Granted, I'm a huge sucker for life affirming messages and content, so....it could all be pure self delusion. I think my death will be as meaningful as my life, and that in death I'll still be a part of that relationship to life, cycled back through life - broken down for parts....death as life's engine and all that, clearing the way for my kids and their kids and their kids kids ad infinitum. Other peoples too, I hope to have created something lasting and meaningful and somebody is going to have to take care of it when I'm gone, or they might want to refer to it when they design their own little slice of meaning. I suppose..to me, that's something like permanence without all the responsibility, lol? That I'll end up (I hope) being present in so many ways and places and things and people - but that the work and maintenance on my end will all be done. I won't have to actively do any of it, anymore.

(October 28, 2021 at 11:30 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote:

(October 28, 2021 at 7:53 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: Worse. Than. Drich.

Agree. At least Drich believes the batshittery he espouses. This little weasel is just a middle school liar.

Nah, I think with his particular personality he actually believes the fantasy and magic. Telling him it doesn't make sense, it's not real or logical will not make a difference and he will continue to spout nonsense. The only thing that might change his behavior is personal negative consequences and the change will only last as long as the consequence does. Once his feet are out of the fire he'll revert back to a life of fantasy and magic.

I'm not sure I'd eat any bread/food he made. It would be nice to know which bakery to avoid.

But then, this is the internet and there is no way to know if Ari is some weird POE version.

(October 28, 2021 at 10:39 pm)Simon Moon Wrote:

(October 28, 2021 at 7:49 pm)Ahriman Wrote: Enjoying life is more important/meaningful than anything else, but it's not some grand meaning. It is very much a mundane understanding.

Please demonstrate to us that there is such a 'grand' meaning.

How do you even know, that the grand purpose the god you believe exists, has chosen for you, is even in your best interests?

It's kind if strange to me, that the vast majority of people would rebel if their: college was chosen for them, their major, their career,  their spouse, where rhey are going to live, hiw many children they would have, etc, were all chosen for them.

But they seem perfectly ok with a god choosing their purpose for them.

A dictatorship, even if run by a benevolent god, is still a dictatorship.

It doesn't matter what the grand meaning is because only God knows what it is anyway. Humans don't need to be worried about the grand meaning.