Indoctrination - the process of teaching a person or group to accept a set of beliefs uncritically.

I've seen at least one person on this forum and I've seen it plenty of times before, claim that atheists are indoctrinated.  Usually this is thrown in as an ad hominem because the theist has little else to say and has already lost the argument.  I understand that in this context it's means no more than a sticking up your middle finger, but it makes me wonder why they keep throwing this out.  The definition is listed above.  How does this relate to atheists, atheism or any form of non-theistic thinking?

First, it is a given that there is no such thing as an atheist church.  There are atheist organizations, but few atheists actually belong to them.  I never have and never will for the specific reason that I don't want a community of people influencing my thinking.  I do read lots of books by atheists and also theists.  Probably 99% of the people I associate with are theists of one sort or another.  I couldn't count the number of times a theist has tried to influence me in some way, large or small, it would be an impossible task.  But I can say that the only times I've had an atheist try to influence me is maybe during an argument on a forum like this.  

And lets consider the definition more.  The word "uncritically" is used, meaning when you are being indoctrinated you aren't supposed to be thinking about this too much, you are just supposed to accept it because it is so.  Nothing could be more antithetical to the atheistic way of thinking.  Critical thinking is an absolute necessity.  It forces you to challenge ideas and beliefs you might have held since you were a child.  So how can someone get this so backward?

I expect my experience isn't too far removed from other atheists.  So why do theists continue to make this accusation?  Is it just that they have so little imagination?

Fun fact, everyone is indoctrinated, if not by one source of indoctrination then another, atheists reject religious indoctrination but embrace scientific indoctrination, often to the point of accepting scientism, and/or becoming left wing nut jobs.

(January 21, 2022 at 11:02 am)Ahriman Wrote: Fun fact, everyone is indoctrinated, if not by one source of indoctrination then another, atheists reject religious indoctrination but embrace scientific indoctrination, often to the point of accepting scientism, and/or becoming left wing nut jobs.

Please read the definition of "indoctrination" and explain how I am indoctrinated with "scientism".

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And also how you know this. You don't know anything about me, so how can you know this?

(January 21, 2022 at 11:03 am)Spongebob Wrote:

(January 21, 2022 at 11:02 am)Ahriman Wrote: Fun fact, everyone is indoctrinated, if not by one source of indoctrination then another, atheists reject religious indoctrination but embrace scientific indoctrination, often to the point of accepting scientism, and/or becoming left wing nut jobs.

Please read the definition of "indoctrination" and explain how I am indoctrinated with "scientism".

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And also how you know this.  You don't know anything about me, so how can you know this?

I know you're a bleeding heart Liberal type, that's all I need to know. People like you will swear up and down that God cannot be real yet you live in a society that was founded on godly principles. Science is your master, whether you understand it consciously or not.

(January 21, 2022 at 11:09 am)Ahriman Wrote: I know you're a bleeding heart Liberal type, that's all I need to know. People like you will swear up and down that God cannot be real yet you live in a society that was founded on godly principles. Science is your master, whether you understand it consciously or not.

Do you know how ignorant you sound?

First, you have no idea how I came by my liberal politics, so you can't argue that I was indoctrinated on that.  Fact is I grew up in a very conservative home/city/state/church.  I decided on my own to change my politics based on my experiences and reading books that no one forced me to read.  I've never belonged to any political organization and generally I'm surrounded by republicans.  So how could I have been indoctrinated to be liberal?  And wouldn't it make more sense if you were to ask someone about this before assuming you know everything?

Second, you haven't seen me "swear up and down" that god cannot be real because I haven't even been involved with any such discussions here.  You are merely assuming that, which is also ignorant.  If you want to know my opinions on god, I'm happy to oblige, but stop assuming you know things that you clearly don't.

How is science my "master"?  How does that even make any sense?  In what way?  In fact, how is science not your "master" as well?  And in fact the master of all of us?  You post your comments on a forum, using the Internet, which is a collection of computers and a massive web of communication lines, using a personal computer, sitting under electric lights in an air conditioned or heated room and you are so ignorant that you don't realize that science is your master?  If I were to remove everything you use that depends on centuries of science, you would b sitting on a rock wishing you had something to eat.  That's how ignorant of science you are.

(January 21, 2022 at 11:21 am)Spongebob Wrote:

(January 21, 2022 at 11:09 am)Ahriman Wrote: I know you're a bleeding heart Liberal type, that's all I need to know. People like you will swear up and down that God cannot be real yet you live in a society that was founded on godly principles. Science is your master, whether you understand it consciously or not.

Do you know how ignorant you sound?

First, you have no idea how I came by my liberal politics, so you can't argue that I was indoctrinated on that.  Fact is I grew up in a very conservative home/city/state/church.  I decided on my own to change my politics based on my experiences and reading books that no one forced me to read.  I've never belonged to any political organization and generally I'm surrounded by republicans.  So how could I have been indoctrinated to be liberal?  And wouldn't it make more sense if you were to ask someone about this before assuming you know everything?

Second, you haven't seen me "swear up and down" that god cannot be real because I haven't even been involved with any such discussions here.  You are merely assuming that, which is also ignorant.  If you want to know my opinions on god, I'm happy to oblige, but stop assuming you know things that you clearly don't.

How is science my "master"?  How does that even make any sense?  In what way?  In fact, how is science not your "master" as well?  And in fact the master of all of us?  You post your comments on a forum, using the Internet, which is a collection of computers and a massive web of communication lines, using a personal computer, sitting under electric lights in an air conditioned or heated room and you are so ignorant that you don't realize that science is your master?  If I were to remove everything you use that depends on centuries of science, you would b sitting on a rock wishing you had something to eat.  That's how ignorant of science you are.

Well, go ahead.

I'll answer your questions if you answer mine. Quid pro quo. And yours are the assumptions, not mine.

(January 21, 2022 at 11:31 am)Spongebob Wrote: I'll answer your questions if you answer mine.  Quid pro quo.  And yours are the assumptions, not mine.

It's not that science isn't important, it's your attitude towards it that makes me think it dominates your thinking. You say science has made all kinds of things possible, but do you even know where science came from? The neanderthals didn't have science, which is why they were always so primitive. But God blessed humanity with science, in order to facilitate our evolution.

The neanderthals did have science, they just didn't understand it.

god is make believe.

(January 21, 2022 at 11:39 am)Ahriman Wrote: It's not that science isn't important, it's your attitude towards it that makes me think it dominates your thinking. You say science has made all kinds of things possible, but do you even know where science came from? The neanderthals didn't have science, which is why they were always so primitive. But God blessed humanity with science, in order to facilitate our evolution.

In fact I have spent a good deal of time thinking, learning and debating about the origins of science, as lots of critical thinkers do; it's not uncommon at all.  After all, its reasonable, expected even, to want to know where this idea that shapes so much of our life came from.  Grade school does a pretty horrible job of this (mine anyway), so I was left to ask questions once I became aware enough to even do that.  For me that started around middle school but didn't become rigorous until I reached college and beyond.  No one knows for certain where the origins of science came from, but it is clearly rooted in the curiosity and imagination of humans.  There is plenty of evidence that humans have been experimenting with their environment for tens of thousands of years, perhaps more.  The ancient Egyptians and Mesopotamians certainly utilized scientific ideas and made extraordinary discoveries.  But formal ideas about science began with Greek philosophy and in fact science itself is an offshoot of philosophy.  There is no reason to assume any god "blessed" humans with science and there is certainly no evidence of that.  The evolution of humans took place millions of years before any evidence of human ingenuity appears in the fossil record.  One can only speculate about the kinds of things our distant ancestors were thinking.  But one thing is for certain, it wasn't until the renaissance that scientific thinking gained a permanent foothold in human society and began to significantly alter the trajectory of human existence.  What astonishes me is that you ask this sort of question on a forum when there are literally hundreds (maybe thousands) of books, videos, films and more available that explain this.

And understanding the origins of science only gets one an understanding of what the scientific method is and why it is the most valid and reliable form of advancing knowledge.  It doesn't get you anywhere near the question of how knowledge of science can influence one's views on religion.  It certainly says nothing about indoctrination.  So let's get one thing straight and without this there can be no conversation.  One cannot indoctrinate oneself.  That is an axiom.  One can educate oneself on any topic and it is possible to educate oneself with bad information and thus become poorly informed.  But that is not the same thing as indoctrination, which by definition means someone else filled your head with information of their choosing without your consent.  And I was most certainly not indoctrinated into scientific thinking.  Religion, yes.  Science, no.  Got that?

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(January 21, 2022 at 12:20 pm)no one Wrote: The neanderthals did have science, they just didn't understand it.

god is make believe.

The aliens gave them TVs, too, but they mistook them for rocks and smashed each other over the head with them.