(June 16, 2022 at 8:48 pm)Belacqua Wrote:

(June 16, 2022 at 7:19 pm)bennyboy Wrote: I'm assuming an evolutionary motivational mechanism here-- that instincts tend toward genetic fitness.  A baby's not intrinsically cute, but enough people say "Squeee" when they see a baby that it's relatively hard for baby-spiking hobbyists to get to babies.

This has its problems too, though.  People who don't know how Google works think "Squeee" when they think about an embryo, even though in reality it's really not squee-worthy until about 9 months after conception.

That's why pro-lifers hate pro-choicers.  Nobody wants to imagine a scalpel and a vacuum cleaner when they're halfway through a good "Squee" about an imaginary baby-that-is-not-yet.

The arguments against abortion that I've read don't mention cuteness as a factor. 

To have an honest debate, it's important to be able to restate your opponent's argument in terms he would agree with.

Not if the opponent's terms are themselves dishonest.

I'm perfectly capable of detailing a pro-lifer's argument in their terms.  However, since pro-lifers' terms are, in my estimation, couched to bypass rational argument rather than to engage in it, then accepting them at face value means either carrying on a farcical debate, or choosing not to have one at all.

(June 16, 2022 at 9:12 pm)bennyboy Wrote: Not if the opponent's terms are themselves dishonest.

I'm perfectly capable of detailing a pro-lifer's argument in their terms.  However, since pro-lifers' terms are, in my estimation, couched to bypass rational argument rather than to engage in it, then accepting them at face value means either carrying on a farcical debate, or choosing not to have one at all.

I guess we've heard different arguments.

(June 16, 2022 at 9:25 am)h311inac311 Wrote: Our creation points to a creator, the vast majority of people whom have ever existed understood this idea, and it is the primary reason why there are so many religions all across our world.

"Our creation..." let's stop right there. You're caught up in your own thinking, forgetting that there are legitimate alternatives to your personal worldview. You present this as an obvious facet of existence, when it is surely not. 

And of course, the idea that, historically, most humans - who understood next to nothing about the nature of reality due to the lack of scientific knowledge - worshipped idols and gods does not mean anything about its validity. This is a clear example of argumentum ad populum. 

The ancient Nordic population didn't understand why the sky thundered, so they made up a deity to explain it. Other god-based belief systems are no different.

Quote:   Christians make the exclusive truth claim that our world was established by YHWH or the unmoved mover. God is real weather or not your brain imagines him to exist, and there are countless spirits within the world which your imagination also denies so all you are left with is your own cognition.

Again, you're just saying words, not making any sort of argument. You're repeating your own assumptions like it means anything to me. And your idea of God is different than others' idea of God, including your fellow Christians. Your conception of God or the unmoved mover is subject to your own cognition. We're in the same position, except you believe your own beliefs superior for no good reason.

 

Quote:Our base truth-claims are worlds apart, you are a creation which denies the existence of a creator. You are an intelligent being which denies the existence of an intelligent, or intentionally organized world. Your birth was based on biological rules but my question to you is what is your explanation for as to how those rules were written?

I am the product of over 13 billion years of time. I see no evidence I was "created." I did not come into this world, I came out of it, like a leaf comes out of a tree. I am not a separate, distinct entity but part of the same everything that everything else is made of. I see no reason to believe in "creation" as you do. You fall into the ego trap that Christianity lays: You and your life feel so utterly important that surely there is a God, he created us for a reason, and he guides us. I'm sorry to inform you that your higher consciousness and sense of self have deluded you. This universe was not made for you nor I, and we are nothing in the grand scale of the cosmos. I don't think the idea that we are "created" holds up to scrutiny. Any worldview that postures us as important on a cosmic scale is egotistical in the truest sense of the term.

There's this idea from Christians that if there isn't a God that created and planned things, then the conditions for human life just randomly happened. Which sounds silly. But to that I say - you are severely underestimating what can happen over billions of years. It did not happen overnight, and it certainly wasn't random. But simultaneously there is no reason to think anything was created or planned in advance... other than the fact that you just want to think that.

 Once again, you're just repeating your own assumptions like they should be compelling, but they're really not.

(June 16, 2022 at 9:25 am)h311inac311 Wrote: Our creation points to a creator

Who says there is a creation?

Quote:, the vast majority of people whom have ever existed understood this idea

And the vast majority of people are idiots.

Quote:[ and it is the primary reason why there are so many religions all across our world.

Idiots thinking-up idiotic ideas.

   

Quote:Christians make the exclusive truth claim that our world was established by YHWH or the unmoved mover.

The unmoved mover needn't be a God.

Quote: God is real weather or not your brain imagines him to exist,

No, because he may simply be imaginary

Quote: and there are countless spirits within the world which your imagination also denies so all you are left with is your own cognition.

Congrats, you just made a baseless claim.

   

Quote:Our base truth-claims are worlds apart,

Yes, your claims are unfounded whereas atheism is just the absence of an unfounded claim.

Quote: you are a creation which denies the existence of a creator.

We are not a creation. Period. We are an evolved being. Period.

Quote:[You are an intelligent being which denies the existence of an intelligent, or intentionally organized world.

Because believing in it is not intelligent.

Quote: Your birth was based on biological rules but my question to you is what is your explanation for as to how those rules were written?

They weren't written.

Morality and pleasure are intimately linked. Doing good for oneself, maximizing pleasure.......that's morality.

(June 23, 2022 at 3:03 am)Ahriman Wrote: Morality and pleasure are intimately linked. Doing good for oneself, maximizing pleasure.......that's morality.

No, that's unhealthy egocentrism.

Boru

(June 23, 2022 at 3:22 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:

(June 23, 2022 at 3:03 am)Ahriman Wrote: Morality and pleasure are intimately linked. Doing good for oneself, maximizing pleasure.......that's morality.

No, that's unhealthy egocentrism.

Boru

A self-defeating attitude.

When it comes to the foundations of morality in the Western world, they are made of Humanism.

Yuval Noah Harari explains it best in his videos and books. Here is a short video

(June 23, 2022 at 3:03 am)Ahriman Wrote: Morality and pleasure are intimately linked. Doing good for oneself, maximizing pleasure.......that's morality.

Certainly morality and pleasure are linked in virtue ethics, as in Aristotle. 

The thinking is that a virtuous person will be pleased to do good. If you do good because you have to -- because someone makes you, or because not doing it will get you arrested -- then you're not really virtuous. 

We don't act ethically simply in order to make ourselves happy, but happiness is a reliable by-product. Only a virtuous person can have a life of maximum pleasure.

In my opinion it's the sign of a bad person that he gets pleasure from making other people feel bad. Something is wrong with a person who enjoys unnecessary hurt. 

So this is somewhat different from what you're saying, maybe, in that the focus is on others. It's true, though, that doing good for others is also doing good for oneself.

(June 23, 2022 at 3:03 am)Ahriman Wrote: Morality and pleasure are intimately linked. Doing good for oneself, maximizing pleasure.......that's morality.

It's one theory.  Pure hedonism.  If it feels good, do it.  I don't think it's your moral system, though.  For example..say your dad doesn't want to give you any more money, because he doesn't like to.  Or, maybe, because he enjoys watching you suffer?  Or perhaps some guy likes guys so he does guys.

Each one, good, according to the above.