(September 28, 2022 at 8:16 am)Jehanne Wrote:

(September 28, 2022 at 8:06 am)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: Please answer that question. Why is your argument here not an appeal to "Russia's going to win because they're too strong, we may as well quit supporting Ukraine now"?

It's what I see happening, not what I hope happens.  

Well, there's at least three people here who are pretty well-informed about this stuff who are telling you that Russia is not this invincible beast of a nation and that this war will not end in their favor. Yet you would have Ukrainians unhappy with Russian occupation to simply move, because that country was strong enough to seize their homes by force?

Yeah, no. That's not how people work, and if Western aid is prolonging their fight to live as they wish, I say good. I'm sure you would say "Welp, okay" if someone came into your hometown and committed the atrocities the Russians have.

Me, I'd pick up a gun whether or not NATO was sending weapons, bullets, or tickets to Century 19's next premiere. Some things ae worth fighting for -- or against.

(September 28, 2022 at 8:22 am)arewethereyet Wrote:

(September 28, 2022 at 8:16 am)Jehanne Wrote: It's what I see happening, not what I hope happens.  What I hope happens is that the war simply ends.  If part of Ukraine gets absorbed into Russia, then people living there who are unhappy should leave.  Likewise, if Ukraine regains all of its lost territory, those who wish to live under Russian rule could (and should) always move.  In this respect, I see the entire conflict as having been absolutely pointless.

Do you really think that when a country is invaded and taken over by another that the people who don't like it can just grab their toothbrushes and go elsewhere?

In Ukraine, tens of thousands have done just that. Thousands are living in the United States right now; I suspect that most will end up staying permanently.

(September 28, 2022 at 8:21 am)Jehanne Wrote:

(September 28, 2022 at 7:57 am)Helios Wrote: NATO isn't the United States it's a defensive alliance between nations against hostile powers and Putin's reasons aren't reasonable.

Oh, I agree, absolutely.  If Ukraine wants to join NATO, then Russia should let them.  If Russia is concerned about their "national security", then abandon Start I & II and station a few thousand short & medium range thermonuclear hydrogen missiles along the border with Ukraine, pointing a few dozen hypersonic missiles straight at Kiev.  Such will deter any NATO "aggression", real or imagined.

So Ukraine shouldn't be allowed to join NATO because Russia will overeact to imaginary threats.....

(September 28, 2022 at 8:23 am)Jehanne Wrote: My appeal is to reason -- it's why the whole geopolitical situation needs to go and be replaced by a democratic One World Government.

It's not reasonable to expect people to roll over and give up their lives, family, property, and dignity because some American who will not suffer any loss is afraid the war might expand. It is reasonable to assume that they will keep fighting anyway. It is unreasonable to insist they surrender because of your fears.

(September 28, 2022 at 8:27 am)Jehanne Wrote:

(September 28, 2022 at 8:22 am)arewethereyet Wrote: Do you really think that when a country is invaded and taken over by another that the people who don't like it can just grab their toothbrushes and go elsewhere?

In Ukraine, tens of thousands have done just that.  Thousands are living in the United States right now; I suspect that most will end up staying permanently.

Too bad those people shouldn't have to move anywhere as that's their land ....

(September 28, 2022 at 8:27 am)Jehanne Wrote: In Ukraine, tens of thousands have done just that.

Out of forty+ million ... have you thought this through?

(September 28, 2022 at 8:25 am)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:

(September 28, 2022 at 8:16 am)Jehanne Wrote: It's what I see happening, not what I hope happens.  

Well, there's at least three people here who are pretty well-informed about this stuff who are telling you that Russia is not this invincible beast of a nation and that this war will not end in their favor. Yet you would have Ukrainians unhappy with Russian occupation to simply move, because that country was strong enough to seize their homes by force?

Yeah, no. That's not how people work, and if Western aid is prolonging their fight to live as they wish, I say good. I'm sure you would say "Welp, okay" if someone came into your hometown and committed the atrocities the Russians have.

Me, I'd pick up a gun whether or not NATO was sending weapons, bullets, or tickets to Century 19's next premiere. Some things ae worth fighting for -- or against.

Let's assume Russia loses and abandons the whole shabagan, and Ukraine joins the West & NATO with much fanfare and celebrations. Plan B, as I stated, would be to abandon START I & II and line the Russian & Ukrainian border with thermonuclear hydrogen weapons & missiles, which are much cheaper than the thousands of armored vehicles that the Ukrainians have destroyed. Hopefully, such will allow the Ukrainians to feel "safer", now that they are part of NATO with its Article 5 protections.

(September 28, 2022 at 8:32 am)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:

(September 28, 2022 at 8:27 am)Jehanne Wrote: In Ukraine, tens of thousands have done just that.

Out of forty+ million ... have you thought this through?

And considering none of them should have to leave as it's their land.

(September 28, 2022 at 6:19 am)Jehanne Wrote:

(September 28, 2022 at 3:20 am)Deesse23 Wrote: ...and thats your apologetics for invasion of Ukraine? History?
Germany has been invaded several times by France in the 17th-18th century. I guess the war of 1870/71 was aok then.

Back to Russia.
The most succesful invasion(s) of Russia were conducted by Poland, believe it or not. in the 1600s Moscow was taken and Russia had to accept territorial losses to Poland. In 1921 Poland attacked Russia and took parts of Ukraine, Belarus and Lithuania. 
Why does Putin not bother with Poland at all? He should trust Poland the least of all.

Yes, exactly, your argument is utter nonsense, historically.

Umm, I am NOT justifying the behavior, rather, I am trying to give an explanation/reason for it.

As I've stated, Russia's invasion of Ukraine was, is and remains abhorrently evil. Individuals living in Ukraine would wanted to be part of Russia could and should have simply moved!

I just explained to you why your explanation is no explanation at all.
Poland invaded Russia twice, successfully, and you are arguing the Russia is wary of everyone else.

(September 28, 2022 at 8:32 am)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:

(September 28, 2022 at 8:27 am)Jehanne Wrote: In Ukraine, tens of thousands have done just that.

Out of forty+ million ... have you thought this through?

I don't know the exact figure. Such may not be known. I am only saying that such has happened.