(October 1, 2022 at 4:36 pm)Nay_Sayer Wrote: Being drunk isn't an ethic race. Your analogy is terribly flawed

At no point in this thread have I been talking about race. I've been talking about voting-- speficially that incarcerated felons, having shown that they're not willing to accept the responsibilities of the social contract, shouldn't be allowed a vote in the management of the society.

Saying, "Well, incarcerated felons are largely black, therefore that's a racist principle" is bullshit. If they were 100% white, I'd hold the same opinion.

That's one of the problems, really, particularly in context of the us where both "poor" and "criminal" are functionally interchangeable with black, and treated accordingly. That certainly can't be the type of system you think should knock heads even harder...can it?

(October 1, 2022 at 5:05 pm)bennyboy Wrote:

(October 1, 2022 at 4:36 pm)Nay_Sayer Wrote: Being drunk isn't an ethic race. Your analogy is terribly flawed

At no point in this thread have I been talking about race.  I've been talking about voting-- speficially that incarcerated felons, having shown that they're not willing to accept the responsibilities of the social contract, shouldn't be allowed a vote in the management of the society.

Saying, "Well, incarcerated felons are largely black, therefore that's a racist principle" is bullshit.  If they were 100% white, I'd hold the same opinion.

What about people incarcerated for misdemeanors? I mean, if Sue lands in the nick for something like unpaid traffic tickets, does she lose the right to vote. She’s not accepting her responsibilities under the social contract, right?

What about non-incarcerated people who don’t fulfill their bit? Central to the social contract is that people accept limitations on freedom in exchange for security. There is also the requirement that citizens accept that particular classes of people (judges, cops, elected officials) have a certain amount of authority over them. Does a man who loudly proclaims, ‘[fill in the blank] is not MY president!’ forfeit his right to vote? Same for these so-called ‘sovereign citizens’. Even more problematic, do people who choose to not vote lose the right to do so?

Not upholding the social contract is a bloody silly yardstick to use for deciding who doesn’t get to vote.

Boru

Have people who do as much broken the social contract, themselves?

(September 30, 2022 at 3:33 pm)Helios Wrote:

(September 30, 2022 at 3:09 pm)Aegon Wrote: Oh okay, well when you put it like that, I guess I have to agree!

Find me one time they reported misinformation. Go.

Sagaar spew "don't say gay bill" nonsense and Krystal for once actually acts like a leftist and actually calls him out on his bullshit.

Really? You're going to reply to me with fucking Varush?

Quote:Really? You're going to reply to me with fucking Varush?

Yup because his commentary here is correct .....

(October 1, 2022 at 5:14 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: That's one of the problems, really, particularly in context of the us where both "poor" and "criminal" are functionally interchangeable with black, and treated accordingly.  That certainly can't be the type of system you think should knock heads even harder...can it?

I don't think preventing incarcerated felons from voting is really that hard a knock.

As for the race problem-- and what an absolute clusterfuck it is at least in the US-- I don't know that there ever CAN be a solution, so long as poverty and drugs exist in the same space.

I saw it even worse when I worked on reservation lands in Canada.  There's no saving a town when even the chief is sniffing glue to get by.  Mothers, uncles, cousins, doing drugs WITH kids.  That's the outer circle of the fucking Inferno.  How does that cycle ever break for them?

I'm not talking about all native reservations, by the way.  Some of them had oil or casinos or worked in regions with mining or forestry, and they had good schools, 2 trucks in every driveway, and so on.  They had community centers where kids learned traditional languages and arts.  Nice places, great cultural experience.  Elk jerky rocks.

It looks like a race problem, but it really isn't-- it's a debasement problem.  Debasement leads to hardcore criminality, and there's really nothing you can do about it from the outside so far as I can tell.

(October 1, 2022 at 6:40 pm)bennyboy Wrote:

(October 1, 2022 at 5:14 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: That's one of the problems, really, particularly in context of the us where both "poor" and "criminal" are functionally interchangeable with black, and treated accordingly.  That certainly can't be the type of system you think should knock heads even harder...can it?

I don't think preventing incarcerated felons from voting is really that hard a knock.

-and that certainly has something to do with what you think about Incarcerated Felons™.

You think you're talking about a particular kind of person, but the reality of people incarcerated on felony charges is not going to look like what you have in mind. As I keep suggesting, alot of those guys have the most cut and dry -need- for a voice in their governance...one that rarely goes above a mild desire in your own life. They couldn't vote against...beating the shit out of prisoners, for example..if they couldn't vote. They couldn't vote for more rehab funding..if they can't vote. Meanwhile, you're on an internet board for shits and giggles just casually suggesting that we treat the worst treated human beings on earth, even worse. Would you vote for it, and would you appreciate the irony if you got that chance?

Quote:As for the race problem-- and what an absolute clusterfuck it is at least in the US-- I don't know that there ever CAN be a solution, so long as poverty and drugs exist in the same space.

I saw it even worse when I worked on reservation lands in Canada.  There's no saving a town when even the chief is sniffing glue to get by.  Mothers, uncles, cousins, doing drugs WITH kids.  That's the outer circle of the fucking Inferno.  How does that cycle ever break for them?

I'm not talking about all native reservations, by the way.  Some of them had oil or casinos or worked in regions with mining or forestry, and they had good schools, 2 trucks in every driveway, and so on.  They had community centers where kids learned traditional languages and arts.  Nice places, great cultural experience.  Elk jerky rocks.

It looks like a race problem, but it really isn't-- it's a debasement problem.  Debasement leads to hardcore criminality, and there's really nothing you can do about it from the outside so far as I can tell.

-and seeing as how it's a debasement problem...should we further debase those people by officially unpersoning them? Beyond that, if you contend that poverty is a factor, that would suggest a pretty straightforward solution. If poverty is a factor, it's not at all like gravity, just how things are, unsolvable.

(October 1, 2022 at 6:59 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: -and seeing as how it's a debasement problem...should we further debase those people by officially unpersoning them?  Beyond that, if you contend that poverty is a factor, that would suggest a pretty straightforward solution.  If poverty is a factor, it's not at all like gravity, just how things are, unsolvable.

No, by the time their pyschological mindset is in place (probably early to mid teens), then they are already corrupted.

The solution for the issue of debasement due to poverty and drug use is wealth and reduced drug dependence on drugs. Children need to grow up in a certain environment if they are going to function properly as adults.

I'm more interested in getting people to that state, so that they don't NEED to vote from prison, than I am about the rights of prisoners to vote.

(October 1, 2022 at 6:59 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Meanwhile, you're on an internet board for shits and giggles just casually suggesting that we treat the worst treated human beings on earth, even worse.  Would you vote for it, and would you appreciate the irony if you got that chance?

No, they most certainly are NOT the worst treated human beings on earth. That's emotional grandstanding, and I think most people could make a pretty long list of people worse treated than American prisoners-- yourself included, if you cared to make it.

Kids are manipulated into taking drugs, then sold into prostitution in order to pay for them-- systematic rape and abuse that goes on for maybe 15 years until they almost inevitably OD.

Wives are beaten daily, and not just beaten but gaslit into thinking they are less than worthless. They are so demeaned that probably the only reason they don't commit suicide is that they think they aren't even deserving of an escape from their suffering.

People are tortured and eaten. Sometimes, they are forced to watch their children tortured and eaten.

Sounds like a bunch of hyperbolic rhetoric, right? No-- because the problem is that the kinds of people who do these things either ARE in prison or very much SHOULD be. I do not like that there's infinitely more concern for criminals than for the victims of criminals.