Leonardo, 

Thank you very much for your courteous reply. I'm impressed that you could disagree so thoroughly and yet not resort to insults. It's a rare and much appreciated quality.

Quote:What the mainstream media says is usually the same with the Russian propaganda in Moscow Journals and televisions.
  Some of the things you just said are direct quotations from the alternate reality that the Russian propaganda is creating.

The mainstream media on both sides has created its own bizarre alternate reality. Those in their respective propaganda bubbles have extremely distorted views of reality. I don't know how true this is in your part of the world, but I know it's true in the US and other areas where the pro-US corporate media lie all the time. 

So we have to be careful. 

Quote: I said “alternate reality” because that’s exactly what it is. This is the propaganda machine that claims that the objective of Putin was to remove “Nazis” (Like in Wolwenstein 4D Nazis) and “drug addicts” (I still couldn’t figure out this one) from power in Ukraine. 

It's certainly true that Ukraine has a big Nazi problem. And that the US is handing them weapons. I am skeptical that Putin got involved specifically to attack these Nazis. Rather, what the Ukrainians (including some Nazis) were doing to the Russian-speaking populations was an obvious casus belli. 

I don't know what you mean about drug addicts. I have not seen this mentioned. 

Quote:How could you expect anyone to believe any of this? This is a QAnnon theory. This is the Election Campaign of Marine Lepen or the emigration policy of Georgia Meloni, this is Donald Trump’s speech to the far-right in Spain via skype or youtube.
  I cannot even concentrate on such arguments. I  cannot even read them. I’m sorry 

We just have to be very careful and evaluate each claim. 

The US propaganda bubble has included lots of claims about Russia which have quietly been retracted later on. For example, that Hillary Clinton lost the election due to Russian interference. Or that Trump had such close ties with Russia that they could control him. These things were loudly reported for a while, and then retracted in much quieter voices.

Even some of the things that Trump said, as we were all laughing at him, turned out to be true. For example he made a speech saying that Germany was overly dependent on the Russian gas pipelines. When he said that all the German delegates laughed openly. But it turned out to be true, because now that the gas is unavailable, the Germans are complaining that the gas the US is selling them is wildly expensive. It really is going to harm German industry terribly. Recently Trump said that the war in Ukraine was provoked by the US, and that is also completely true. I don't know who tells Trump what to say, but sometimes they get it right.

I have no respect for the LePen family or Meloni. I do have respect for those few independent journalists who do not believe that Putin is 100 Hitler brains in a Godzilla body. He is doing exactly what it was predicted he would do, when the US took its provocative steps. His response has been far more limited than it could have been. These most recent attacks on Kiev, for example, are exactly the sort of thing that the US does on the first day when it attacks a nation. 

So I acknowledge that both sides live in propaganda bubbles. The US-backed narrative is ridiculously simplified so as to make Putin and Russia into irrational madmen. And that is what gets repeated on this forum. People repeat the propaganda slogans to each other, and feel like as if they're in the right. And this leads them to cheer when people die.

If I make any specific claim which you feel is wrong, please address that. I'd be happy to see objective reporting from other sources, as the sources I see are also not perfect. It's an ongoing process of weighing and sifting. 

Thank you again for responding with such kindness. It's a pleasure to talk with people who can do this in a grown-up way.

Quote:The mainstream media on both sides has created its own bizarre alternate reality. Those in their respective propaganda bubbles have extremely distorted views of reality. I don't know how true this is in your part of the world, but I know it's true in the US and other areas where the pro-US corporate media lie all the time. 

So we have to be careful. 

There is no comparison between the US media and Russia's state media on Ukraine. The latter is living in the twilight zone of coping and denial.

Quote:It's certainly true that Ukraine has a big Nazi problem. And that the US is handing them weapons. I am skeptical that Putin got involved specifically to attack these Nazis. Rather, what the Ukrainians (including some Nazis) were doing to the Russian-speaking populations was an obvious casus belli. 

I don't know what you mean about drug addicts. I have not seen this mentioned. 

Ukraine doesn't have any more of a Nazi problem anywhere else in Eastern Europe and the treatment of Russian speakers in Ukraine (who have suffered way worst under Russian occupation) has been exaggerated by pro-Kremlin bullshitters.

Quote:We just have to be very careful and evaluate each claim. 

You have not done this you have blindly recited Pro Russian talking points that have me 2 minutes of research to debunk.

Quote:The US propaganda bubble has included lots of claims about Russia which have quietly been retracted later on. For example, that Hillary Clinton lost the election due to Russian interference. Or that Trump had such close ties with Russia that they could control him. These things were loudly reported for a while, and then retracted in much quieter voices.

Actually, it isn't. Russia most definitely interfered in the election to what amount that crippled Hilary's campaign is up for debate. Trump has close ties to Russia and Russia obviously pulled his strings multiple times throughout his presidency and note you give no examples of these quieter voices and why anyone should give a damn about their opinions....

Quote:Even some of the things that Trump said, as we were all laughing at him, turned out to be true. For example he made a speech saying that Germany was overly dependent on the Russian gas pipelines. When he said that all the German delegates laughed openly. But it turned out to be true, because now that the gas is unavailable, the Germans are complaining that the gas the US is selling them is wildly expensive. It really is going to harm German industry terribly. Recently Trump said that the war in Ukraine was provoked by the US, and that is also completely true. I don't know who tells Trump what to say, but sometimes they get it right.

Nothing Trump said turned out to be true. Your example about Germany fails as it was already debunked earlier. Yes, Germany is not happy about Russia turning the taps off but the idea Germany is going to be crippled by it is just silly. So another lie you have fallen for. And no Ukraine didn't provoke anything nor did the US so that's also a lie. So Trump like you is full of it.

Quote:I have no respect for the LePen family or Meloni. I do have respect for those few independent journalists who do not believe that Putin is 100 Hitler brains in a Godzilla body. He is doing exactly what it was predicted he would do, when the US took its provocative steps. His response has been far more limited than it could have been. These most recent attacks on Kiev, for example, are exactly the sort of thing that the US does on the first day when it attacks a nation. 

By independent media, you mean loons with no clue what they are talking about. The US did nothing "provocative" Putin has always wanted Ukraine and Russia's opening gambit wasn't remotely "limited" it was haphazard and poorly executed and in no way resembles America's first-day operations. This wasn't Russian restraint it was Russian overconfidence and incompetence plain and simple.

Quote:So I acknowledge that both sides live in propaganda bubbles. The US-backed narrative is ridiculously simplified so as to make Putin and Russia into irrational madmen. And that is what gets repeated on this forum. People repeat the propaganda slogans to each other, and feel like as if they're in the right. And this leads them to cheer when people die.

Nope, one is living in the reality of Ukraine the other is living in La La Land with a gun firmly mounted to their heads if they say anything the regime doesn't like. This false equivalency fails ....

Quote:If I make any specific claim which you feel is wrong, please address that. I'd be happy to see objective reporting from other sources, as the sources I see are also not perfect. It's an ongoing process of weighing and sifting. 

Buddy we have been debunking your claims on this thread left and right ......

Quote:Thank you again for responding with such kindness. It's a pleasure to talk with people who can do this in a grown-up way.

Lol yeah, it's totally not grown up to call out your nonsense and then actually back it up with evidence. You really are a condensing ass....

(October 10, 2022 at 9:57 am)Leonardo17 Wrote: Belaqua
  I see that you are a senior member of this forum and that you are here since 2018. As a new member I would not like to offend you but I must say that you just scarred me a little.
  The issue is this: I live in a country where the ruling populist / nationalist / islamist party has very close ties with this Mr. Putin. So although I have the habit of turning off local news stations whenever or wherever I hear them, by talking to the ordinary people, I know what the mainstream media says. What the mainstream media says is usually the same with the Russian propaganda in Moscow Journals and televisions.
  Some of the things you just said are direct quotations from the alternate reality that the Russian propaganda is creating. I said “alternate reality” because that’s exactly what it is. This is the propaganda machine that claims that the objective of Putin was to remove “Nazis” (Like in Wolwenstein 4D Nazis) and “drug addicts” (I still couldn’t figure out this one) from power in Ukraine.
  So you may have your ideas. But if you are not the lower layers of the Russian population who is being permanently exposed to these incoherent lies (or the average Turkish middle class male population whose political support is no different than the support of Chelsea fans to their soccer clubs) how can you even believe a tiny bit of that information?
  I don’t know if I understood you correctly. But if I did, I think I don’t even to answer any of this. Without willing to be disrespectful: How could you expect anyone to believe any of this? This is a QAnnon theory. This is the Election Campaign of Marine Lepen or the emigration policy of Georgia Meloni, this is Donald Trump’s speech to the far-right in Spain via skype or youtube.
  I cannot even concentrate on such arguments. I  cannot even read them. I’m sorry

Brace yourself for the barrage of nonsense 

The only "provocative" thing Ukraine has ever done in Putin's eyes is exist and the only thing the US has done there that is "provocative" is letting Ukraine exist as a nation in its own right ....

(October 10, 2022 at 4:27 pm)Belacqua Wrote: Leonardo, 

Thank you very much for your courteous reply. I'm impressed that you could disagree so thoroughly and yet not resort to insults. It's a rare and much appreciated quality.

Quote:What the mainstream media says is usually the same with the Russian propaganda in Moscow Journals and televisions.
  Some of the things you just said are direct quotations from the alternate reality that the Russian propaganda is creating.

The mainstream media on both sides has created its own bizarre alternate reality. Those in their respective propaganda bubbles have extremely distorted views of reality. I don't know how true this is in your part of the world, but I know it's true in the US and other areas where the pro-US corporate media lie all the time. 

So we have to be careful. 

Quote: I said “alternate reality” because that’s exactly what it is. This is the propaganda machine that claims that the objective of Putin was to remove “Nazis” (Like in Wolwenstein 4D Nazis) and “drug addicts” (I still couldn’t figure out this one) from power in Ukraine. 

It's certainly true that Ukraine has a big Nazi problem. And that the US is handing them weapons. I am skeptical that Putin got involved specifically to attack these Nazis. Rather, what the Ukrainians (including some Nazis) were doing to the Russian-speaking populations was an obvious casus belli. 

I don't know what you mean about drug addicts. I have not seen this mentioned. 

Quote:How could you expect anyone to believe any of this? This is a QAnnon theory. This is the Election Campaign of Marine Lepen or the emigration policy of Georgia Meloni, this is Donald Trump’s speech to the far-right in Spain via skype or youtube.
  I cannot even concentrate on such arguments. I  cannot even read them. I’m sorry 

We just have to be very careful and evaluate each claim. 

The US propaganda bubble has included lots of claims about Russia which have quietly been retracted later on. For example, that Hillary Clinton lost the election due to Russian interference. Or that Trump had such close ties with Russia that they could control him. These things were loudly reported for a while, and then retracted in much quieter voices.

Even some of the things that Trump said, as we were all laughing at him, turned out to be true. For example he made a speech saying that Germany was overly dependent on the Russian gas pipelines. When he said that all the German delegates laughed openly. But it turned out to be true, because now that the gas is unavailable, the Germans are complaining that the gas the US is selling them is wildly expensive. It really is going to harm German industry terribly. Recently Trump said that the war in Ukraine was provoked by the US, and that is also completely true. I don't know who tells Trump what to say, but sometimes they get it right.

I have no respect for the LePen family or Meloni. I do have respect for those few independent journalists who do not believe that Putin is 100 Hitler brains in a Godzilla body. He is doing exactly what it was predicted he would do, when the US took its provocative steps. His response has been far more limited than it could have been. These most recent attacks on Kiev, for example, are exactly the sort of thing that the US does on the first day when it attacks a nation. 

So I acknowledge that both sides live in propaganda bubbles. The US-backed narrative is ridiculously simplified so as to make Putin and Russia into irrational madmen. And that is what gets repeated on this forum. People repeat the propaganda slogans to each other, and feel like as if they're in the right. And this leads them to cheer when people die.

If I make any specific claim which you feel is wrong, please address that. I'd be happy to see objective reporting from other sources, as the sources I see are also not perfect. It's an ongoing process of weighing and sifting. 

Thank you again for responding with such kindness. It's a pleasure to talk with people who can do this in a grown-up way.

And once again, right out of the gate with snark.  Why do you continue to come here if you hate the members?  Is it because someone was once impressed by something you said or that you are a 'senior' member?


Snarky left-handed comments aren't grown-up.  But you do you. 

You get what you give.  You are a pompous ass who thinks your little snide remarks go unnoticed.

(October 10, 2022 at 5:20 am)Belacqua Wrote: Anyway, Belarus says Ukraine is preparing to attack, and says it will form an alliance with Russia.

This is how big wars get started.

This is because Russia is losing and needs a distracted Ukraine in order to regroup, resupply, and find soldiers who are better at fighting than running.

(October 10, 2022 at 5:55 am)Belacqua Wrote: Whole lot of missiles getting fired today. Whole lot of innocent people going to get burned to death --- more than on the bridge.

Get your funny memes ready!

And while you wrung your hands about two civilians killed on the bridge, you have zero.point.zero words to write about the scores of Ukrainian civilians killed the last two days by Russian missile attacks.

Odd, that.

I have to assume you have me on ignore because you don't reply to my posts, but that's cool. It simply allows me to rebut any "points" you might have to make without you being able to answer cogently ... not that you could anyway, in all likelihood.

So anyway, keep shilling for the Russians. It's a healthy reminder that the gullible may be used without even realizing it.

(October 10, 2022 at 6:26 am)Helios Wrote: Those missile launches are proof of Russia's desperation

They are expending what's left of their shrinking stocks of PGMs against civilian rather than military targets.

That speaks volumes about Russian aims in this war.

Yet Belacqua is silent on these Russian attacks on civilians both before and after the bridge explosion.

The one thing they were slightly right about is NATO’s expansion to Poland and Baltic countries. So Zelensky promised at the beginning of the war that if Putin stopped the war he would agree to not joining NATO. And finally the result is quite the opposite. Now, not only Ukraine is joining in, but Finland and Sweden are also joining in. And these were the two states who had managed to remain neutral even during the cold war.
But as a deeper way of analyzing things: I think huge errors were made in the post-soviet era (by both sides). I think the west was too opportunistic in that era. I would have made agreements to 1) support the transition of the Russian legal system to a westernized legal system 2) support and monitor all the privatization efforts of the Russian state and try to supervise the way these privatizations are being made. So that no one robs the Russian people and that these people are not pushed into alcoholism and prostitution. In exchange, I would ask for the dismantlement of more nuclear weapons.
Because I think we are seeing some form of relapse here. If it wasn’t for Nuclear weapons this is the rise of the NSDAP to power and it’s invasion of tcheko-slovakia and Poland all over again. But I thin this time the dictator was stopped in an earlier phase. Indeed, If he has taken Ukraine, than is would be Moldavia, Georgia, Poland, perhaps other countries. But he would not stop.
In fact, the Russian propaganda machine designates Michail Gorbatchev as being “naïve”. “Naïve” for believing there could be a future for Russia other than an imperialistic Russia that has control over Easter-Europe and beyond.
That’s what he did in Syria as well. Millions of refugees fled the country. Cities, historical places were razed to the ground. But the Assad regime (friendly toward Russia), has no collapsed, Russian interest has been maintained.
And Russia is also sending its mercenaries to Africa in a bid to destabilize the region and try to secure some other Russian interest in the already very chaotic region.
So again, no offence to anyone. But I don’t really like Russia’s foreign policy and in fact I didn’t like it in the Soviet Era either. I think that if the Soviets had not invaded Afghanistan, today we would have a Pakistan-like country in the region who isn’t posing any major threat to its own population or to any of the surrounding countries.
So this cruel way of governance that is probably the legacy of Ivan the Terrible has to go at some point. Russia is a big country with many natural resources and a well-educated population.
It doesn’t need any authoritarianism. It needs to get rid of its mafia and of its oligarchs (by the way, I believe that Putin is their puppet more than they are his puppets) than yes, it could even become a super-power once again at some time toward the end of this century.
Right now the whole country is in the wrong path and everything that is told by its propaganda machine is a fairy tale. All I am saying is that I literally cannot try to understand this rhetoric. Even expert political scientists are debating on the meaning of terms like “denazification” or “Ukraine being governed by drug-addicts” (yes this is what they said in the first days of the war the aim of the “military operation” was to remove “Nazis” and “drug addicts” from power in Kiev).
So this is not Western Propaganda. This is exactly what’s happening.

(October 10, 2022 at 7:00 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:

(October 10, 2022 at 5:20 am)Belacqua Wrote: Anyway, Belarus says Ukraine is preparing to attack, and says it will form an alliance with Russia.

This is how big wars get started.

This is because Russia is losing and needs a distracted Ukraine in order to regroup, resupply, and find soldiers who are better at fighting than running.

Not as though it will save them as Belarus suffers many of the same issues as Russia with honestly none of the advantages and it's also been observed Poland has been subtly telling  Belarus to back off so I don't think Lukashenka for all his bluster is going to make a full commitment.