If everything that happens, both "good" and "bad", has a purpose and ultimately good intention behind it(cancer babies die because god has a purpose for it; a young woman is raped because god wanted to teach both her and her rapist a moving, faithful lesson) then it would stand to reason that evil and sin don't actually exist. Not by the definition of something that goes against the will of god. Because he wills everything to happen and he has allowed things to happen as they do because they're specifically a part of his plan. They could have happened a different way but he had them happen this specific way, including the choices of individual humans, because that was his intent.

Augustine argued that evil is the absence of good, i.e. the perversion of God's intent.

(May 14, 2023 at 6:53 pm)Angrboda Wrote: Augustine argued that evil is the absence of good, i.e. the perversion of God's intent.

Yes. It goes back to the same circular reasoning. "if everything was created by god then there is nothing to compare it to; there is no thing not created by him."

If everything has a purpose, then there was nothing done against god's intent. There is nothing evil.

I don't attach the concept of a god to good or evil.  I use the word evil sometimes but not in a religious context.  

Also, since I don't believe in a god or gods, I don't really buy into the concept of everything has a purpose...I am more of a shit happens type.

Good to see you though!

(May 14, 2023 at 7:06 pm)arewethereyet Wrote: I don't attach the concept of a god to good or evil.  I use the word evil sometimes but not in a religious context.  

Also, since I don't believe in a god or gods, I don't really buy into the concept of everything has a purpose...I am more of a shit happens type.

Same. On all counts.

(May 14, 2023 at 6:51 pm)Ten Wrote: If everything that happens, both "good" and "bad", has a purpose and ultimately good intention behind it(cancer babies die because god has a purpose for it; a young woman is raped because god wanted to teach both her and her rapist a moving, faithful lesson) then it would stand to reason that evil and sin don't actually exist. Not by the definition of something that goes against the will of god. Because he wills everything to happen and he has allowed things to happen as they do because they're specifically a part of his plan. They could have happened a different way but he had them happen this specific way, including the choices of individual humans, because that was his intent.

It's doesn't seem to me to be purpose, or possessing purpose, but the "ultimately good intention"(ugi) in that formulation which suggests the possibility.  Cognizably evil things or circumstances can also have a demonstrable purpose.  Evil often being that purpose for such.  There are other things you might want to clarify as well.  Does the "ultimately" in ugi refer to a quantitative or qualitative proposition?    

We won't need gods to elaborate - it adds an additional and contentious premise that doesn't help in any way to explore the underlying moral question.  Can apparent evil be modified, and if so, in what manner - by volume of offsetting good (quantitative), by the moral purity of intended outcomes?   

I think so.  The good and the bad must both be weighed in a full moral accounting.  It could be the case that some bad thing x created more good through it's realization.  A surprising amount of medical knowledge was obtained by torture.  The infrastructures of every nation on earth might also fall into this category.  This type of moral accounting...as a plan, an item of intent, is basically a moral iou.  Similarly, it could be the case that even the most horrendous outcome was the product of a maximally good intention.  Alfred Nobel believed that his invention could end all war - and the civil applications were tremendous.  This one, basically, an invocation of specific incompetence.    

In neither of these cases does evil seem to be absent, and there's the question of why we would even require some qualifying process if there were no evil to address - either by saying good and alot of it is on the way or that the fuckup basically meant well.  In both cases, and even in the premises meant to lead to the conclusion that evil does not exist, even though a moral accounting can change to accurately reflect different numbers or sums or circumstances... evil exists. It's not modifying that. It's (maybe) modifying how we judge the moral agent. I'm find myself less permissive of intentional evil that produces circumstantial good - at any ratio- than I am of horrendous outcomes absent effective intent. I feel that the first group should perhaps be overpunished, and the latter underpunished. Bad actors need to be dissuaded no matter how much good might materialize from their actions. Incompetents cannot be held to any moral account.

There's really is no purpose to smacking a turnip over the head, after all. It does turn you into the moral actor promising many, many benefits would eventually flow to the turnip from your having done so, though.

(May 14, 2023 at 6:51 pm)Ten Wrote: If everything that happens, both "good" and "bad", has a purpose and ultimately good intention behind it(cancer babies die because god has a purpose for it; a young woman is raped because god wanted to teach both her and her rapist a moving, faithful lesson) then it would stand to reason that evil and sin don't actually exist. Not by the definition of something that goes against the will of god. Because he wills everything to happen and he has allowed things to happen as they do because they're specifically a part of his plan. They could have happened a different way but he had them happen this specific way, including the choices of individual humans, because that was his intent.

Thanks to those who are created to play my enemies (among my relatives and strangers) to prove me that living the Unconditional Love towards all others, good and evil, is totally wrong, I couldn't discover that I am not created to be just a biological robot which has no choice other than being guided by its preprogrammed instructions, like my instincts related to survival, superiority, selfishness and applying a certain justice on others.

Much like miracles, all those who tried to hurt me badly failed. Once I was accused of a crime whose penalty is hanging to death. On the same day, the accusation was dropped, and the head officer of the police station told me that a person (who I never knew who he was) came into the police station and gave him all the necessary to prove my innocence. This is one of the many experiences I witnessed in my life by which I realized by myself the existence of the Holy Spirit of Love. For instance, I was told that one of my enemies said. after failing many times to hurt me really badly: Without any doubt, he is surely protected by his God of the Unconditional Love".

Conclusion:
The existence of evil persons in my life turned out being very important and useful, in my life in the least. Without them, I would have never noticed that I am not just an intelligent evolved animal whose role is just to serve the world as all other living things are created for.

(May 14, 2023 at 6:51 pm)Ten Wrote: If everything that happens, both "good" and "bad", has a purpose and ultimately good intention behind it(cancer babies die because god has a purpose for it; a young woman is raped because god wanted to teach both her and her rapist a moving, faithful lesson) then it would stand to reason that evil and sin don't actually exist. Not by the definition of something that goes against the will of god. Because he wills everything to happen and he has allowed things to happen as they do because they're specifically a part of his plan. They could have happened a different way but he had them happen this specific way, including the choices of individual humans, because that was his intent.

Sin boils down to anything not in the expressed will of God. Evil is the love of sin. In essence Sin is the ability to be independent of God's expressed will/God's law.

Jesus verifies this in Luke 11 that 'we' here in this world are Not apart of God's immediate kingdom and therefore His will is not done on earth the same way it is followed in Heaven. meaning we on earth can in fact be outside of God's will. The proof of this comes in the way of Evil or rather the ability to love and embrace our sin.

(June 8, 2023 at 4:29 pm)R-Farmer Wrote: Sin boils down to anything not in the expressed will of God. Evil is the love of sin. In essence Sin is the ability to be independent of God's expressed will/God's law.

Jesus verifies this in Luke 11 that 'we' here in this world are Not apart of God's immediate kingdom and therefore His will is not done on earth the same way it is followed in Heaven. meaning we on earth can in fact be outside of God's will. The proof of this comes in the way of Evil or rather the ability to love and embrace our sin.

So, there is this God out there, and He has this "will" for how things should work.  But, they don't work that way.  At all.

How incompetent is this god, anyway?  And why is this "will" expressed confusingly in books written by ignorant ancient people, instead of by some more direct means?  What does God have against mixing fabrics, and why does God's will involve a whole lot of killin in the OT, and eternal torture in the NT?

(June 8, 2023 at 4:29 pm)R-Farmer Wrote:

(May 14, 2023 at 6:51 pm)Ten Wrote: If everything that happens, both "good" and "bad", has a purpose and ultimately good intention behind it(cancer babies die because god has a purpose for it; a young woman is raped because god wanted to teach both her and her rapist a moving, faithful lesson) then it would stand to reason that evil and sin don't actually exist. Not by the definition of something that goes against the will of god. Because he wills everything to happen and he has allowed things to happen as they do because they're specifically a part of his plan. They could have happened a different way but he had them happen this specific way, including the choices of individual humans, because that was his intent.

Sin boils down to anything not in the expressed will of God. Evil is the love of sin. In essence Sin is the ability to be independent of God's expressed will/God's law.

Jesus verifies this in Luke 11 that 'we' here in this world are Not apart of God's immediate kingdom and therefore His will is not done on earth the same way it is followed in Heaven. meaning we on earth can in fact be outside of God's will. The proof of this comes in the way of Evil or rather the ability to love and embrace our sin.

And yet love of god is so often love of evil.  Welcome.  Can you explain that?