It's a pretty textbook example of relativist moral framing. Ongoing for centuries. The notion is that anyone outside of their society has no moral purchase.

Explicit moral othering. Just a heartbeat or a bad plate of shrimp away from claiming that we can do whatever we want to Those People™, as it's all just, like..... opinions anyway....man. Still, the afflicted have a point, even if they fail to accurately report it. Nominal subjectivists do communicate as objectivists, and until those nominal subjectivists come to terms with that, there will be no shortage of opportunities for lazy theocratic moralizing. That a person engages in lazy theocratic moralizing is and can only be demonstrative of their having an opinion. Quelle surprise, people with opinions....but it cannot rise to the level of being a bad opinion, or a false opinion, in the absence of facts.

(May 17, 2023 at 4:27 pm)Kingpin Wrote: In this naturalistic worldview, when you state something is good/evil, right/wrong, isn't that just pure subjective opinion that ebbs/flows with societal/cultural acceptance and personal opinion?  If so, on what basis can one judge any act as wrong/evil both in different cultures/societies or different eras without it merely being personal preference and thus have no grounding in truth.

In every worldview morality is subjective and subject to change. Christian morality has changed immeasurably since it's debut in 325CE. The difference between the naturalistic view and religious views is that we don't kid ourselves that the source of human morality is some outside, perfect and unchanging being.

Demonstrably false GUBU. OTOH..idk, you might be kidding yourselves, but I appreciate that you kid yourselves in your own name, if so.

I'm partial to people who own their own shit. Rightly or wrongly. Imagine the feckless motherfucker it takes to blame his own idiocy on a god.

(May 19, 2023 at 3:17 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Demonstrably false GUBU.  OTOH..idk, you might be kidding yourselves, but I appreciate that you kid yourselves in your own name, if so.

I'm partial to people who own their own shit.  Rightly or wrongly.  Imagine the feckless motherfucker it takes to blame his own idiocy on a god.

I was worried I had mangled my meaning in the last post.

That's what I meant, those of us who understand that morality is a human construct know that it's imperfect and subject to change and improvement over time. Christians and other religious believers* who make morality a "god given perfection" do not understand this and the resultant evils are a lot worse as a result

*Not all religious people actually believe in a perfect and immutable morality.

Societal morality is essentially a behavioral contract. It is mostly proscriptive - the idea being that if certain behaviors are prevented, it will create a better society.

At some point people realize that there is a "better" set of rules that results in the type of society people want to live in. These may be objectively better (if objectivity exists in this realm), or they may simply be more coherent to the current zeitgeist.

I think there can be a morality that leads to a objectively better society, if one can agree that psychological and physical harm is bad, and happiness and personal fulfillment are good. But, that morality is still dependent on the state of society, and can rarely be judged until after the good/harm of it has born out.

For a true-believer, the purpose of life is to get to heaven, and the rules for getting to heaven are set in stone. Therefore, anything that runs afoul of the rules is evil and must be stopped. Of course, believers disagree on these rules, but they think that they must exist somewhere in God's rule-book. Judging morality based on how they affect human happiness or well-being is antithetical to their world view. Only God's opinion matters (and their God seems to have the same prejudices that they do - funny that).

What's on the outside of that "mostly"?

(May 19, 2023 at 8:58 am)Kingpin Wrote: Further, I'm not on any "crusade".  I honestly believed this to be a place that encouraged discussion and thought because I believe (like I think some of you believe) these are big questions and require meaningful conversation.  If I will just be vilified, for trying to provoke discussion, then I was wrong in my assumption and I will see myself out.  

Wish you all the best.

I'm guessing you didn't get the response you were hoping for.

Buh-bye.

On your way out, don't let the door hit ya, where evolution split ya.

(May 22, 2023 at 4:28 pm)A. Secular Human Wrote:

(May 19, 2023 at 8:58 am)Kingpin Wrote: Further, I'm not on any "crusade".  I honestly believed this to be a place that encouraged discussion and thought because I believe (like I think some of you believe) these are big questions and require meaningful conversation.  If I will just be vilified, for trying to provoke discussion, then I was wrong in my assumption and I will see myself out.  

Wish you all the best.

I'm guessing you didn't get the response you were hoping for.

Buh-bye.

On your way out, don't let the door hit ya, where evolution split ya.

Well, I know I'm in the minority here but I regret what happened, though not much I can do about it. It was my fault and I let cynicism and paranoia get the better of me and snowball to make mountains out of molehills. At the end of the day he was a nice guy and probably one of the most liberal Christians I've ever met... I wish there were more like that... so, I fucked up and I regret saying what I said.

(May 22, 2023 at 6:24 pm)emjay Wrote:

(May 22, 2023 at 4:28 pm)A. Secular Human Wrote: I'm guessing you didn't get the response you were hoping for.

Buh-bye.

On your way out, don't let the door hit ya, where evolution split ya.

Well, I know I'm in the minority here but I regret what happened, though not much I can do about it. It was my fault and I let cynicism and paranoia get the better of me and snowball to make mountains out of molehills. At the end of the day he was a nice guy and probably one of the most liberal Christians I've ever met... I wish there were more like that... so, I fucked up and I regret saying what I said.

He used to be a nice guy. He's changed. He didn't use to be this shamelessly disingenuous.

Three more like Kingpin and there would be endless threads about civility.