.

(December 15, 2011 at 2:59 am)dtango Wrote:

(December 15, 2011 at 12:01 am)whateverist Wrote: You know that God is a joke. You know that god does not exist. Like the Theists you claim to know much more than I know.

I know more than you know because I have studied the subject in question more than you have.

This of course begs the question "and how do you know that you have studied the question more than I have?" [Let me guess, because you have reached a greater degree of certainty?] I think I will remain agnostic concerning which of us has studied the subject more. Frankly I hope it is you because I'm no longer much interested in any of it, and if I had it to over again would have put the same interest into other subjects.

(December 15, 2011 at 2:59 am)dtango Wrote: I know how the idea of the existence of a God was produced and how it had evolved.

Oh to have been there and seen so much. Exactly how long have you lived? Or do you only speculate? Now you have me curious though. Do tell, how did the idea of the existence of a god come to be? [Personally I agree with Campbell that there is something in the human psyche that gives rise to the idea or makes it appealing once the idea is out there.]

(December 15, 2011 at 2:59 am)dtango Wrote: In order for you to realize that without the proper information one may not have a proper idea of what “gods” or “God” means, I will cite a passage from the ancient Egyptian Coffin Texts and I will ask you to comment on it:

The opening passage of Spell 173 reads:

From this I take it you think it is all a bunch of shit? You have certainly identified an odd passage concerned with the after life, a subject that has always seemed absurd to me as well.

(December 15, 2011 at 2:59 am)dtango Wrote: Egyptians were the most intelligent people of the ancient world, don’t forget.

Okay I do recognize appeals to authority as a form of argument, albeit a very weak form.

(December 15, 2011 at 2:59 am)dtango Wrote:

(December 15, 2011 at 12:01 am)whateverist Wrote: Like them you offer little more than "it's obvious". In my book, ridiculing the opposing view point doesn't count as an argument. Also like the Theists, you have absolute certainty in your beliefs. It will be hard for 7th degree atheists or 1st degree theists to learn and grow if they are no longer entertaining new ideas. All that certainty can really get in the way.

.

My certainty is based on a new idea which is the product of study. Are you interested in new ideas?

I am genuinely curious now. I confess I have turned over more than a few rocks looking for secret meanings, but there are many more I haven't touched.

Neanderthals, slaughterhouses, alternative interpretation of egyptian texts.... now extend that to every faith from everywhere. Voila, DTangos idea of what a god "really" is.

"The smartest people of the ancient world", not exactly an illustrious title.

(December 15, 2011 at 6:02 am)dtango Wrote:

(December 15, 2011 at 4:24 am)houseofcantor Wrote: You're helping already. How come I'm reading, unified in your identity of the universe?

.
Very poetic, indeed!
As regards the funerary texts, however, what poesy is there has been added in order to cover up the ugly reality.

P.S: What work are you referring to?

Your blog, which I added to my blogosphere for future reference.

Most people don't even think of this stuff. Many just accept it as fact based upon inertia, i.e. it has been around for so long with so many believers, there must be something to it. Some people are rational and use logic to disavow themselves of the meme.

Rare are the seekers that go deep. There is something to it, alright - meme - and it has to GTFO.

---

(December 15, 2011 at 10:13 am)whateverist Wrote: .
[Personally I agree with Campbell that there is something in the human psyche that gives rise to the idea or makes it appealing once the idea is out there.]

Oh, yeah. Neuroscience. The atheist's best friend.

(December 15, 2011 at 10:13 am)whateverist Wrote: This of course begs the question "and how do you know that you have studied the question more than I have?"
[…]
Frankly I hope it is you because I'm no longer much interested in any of it, and if I had it to over again would have put the same interest into other subjects.

.
That is exactly what I mean! On this particular subject I know more than you do because this subject is a passion for mine. I’ve spent thirty years studying it and I had to teach myself to read Egyptian hieroglyphs in order to keep going on with the study.

In a lot of other subjects you know much more than I know, but not on this one.

(December 15, 2011 at 10:13 am)whateverist Wrote: Do tell, how did the idea of the existence of a god come to be? [Personally I agree with Campbell that there is something in the human psyche that gives rise to the idea or makes it appealing once the idea is out there.]

.
Campbell’s theory is no better than Daniken’s (if you know his theory about alien gods) because it is not based on what words of the ancients managed to reach us. It is no more than pure speculation.
If you really want to know how the idea came to be, you have to start thinking for yourself. Answer the question: Why is it that the Native Americans tell the same story about gods as the Europeans, Asians and Africans tell, while they had lived for 14,000 in isolation?

(December 15, 2011 at 10:13 am)whateverist Wrote: From this I take it you think it is all a bunch of shit? You have certainly identified an odd passage concerned with the after life, a subject that has always seemed absurd to me as well.

.
A bunch of shit are the translations of the Egyptian funerary texts by the modern Egyptologists. The man who was complaining about the god’s conduct was not in the Netherworld, he was in the gods estate serving them as their slave (the Christians still think of themselves as the slaves of the God).
The texts do not describe a life after death but a life after judgment. A judgment of people alive is described in those texts. Did Campbell told you that? No, because he could not know as the translators had deceived him as had everybody else.

(December 15, 2011 at 10:13 am)whateverist Wrote: Okay I do recognize appeals to authority as a form of argument, albeit a very weak form.

.
What I meant to say is that they were no idiots to believe in life after death of their own. They were taught to believe in it, while still kids, as it happens today.

(December 15, 2011 at 10:13 am)whateverist Wrote: I am genuinely curious now. I confess I have turned over more than a few rocks looking for secret meanings, but there are many more I haven't touched.

.
Well, you now have the stone of the judgment to reflect on!

(December 15, 2011 at 3:19 pm)houseofcantor Wrote: Your blog, which I added to my blogosphere for future reference.

Most people don't even think of this stuff. Many just accept it as fact based upon inertia, i.e. it has been around for so long with so many believers, there must be something to it. Some people are rational and use logic to disavow themselves of the meme.

.
Thank you very much. I certainly can use some encouragement!
I am currently translating an article on The Great Mother but it will take some time.

(December 15, 2011 at 4:57 pm)dtango Wrote: What I meant to say is that they were no idiots to believe in life after death of their own. They were taught to believe in it, while still kids, as it happens today.

Ten years ago I formed an hypothesis based on my own NDE. Last year when I was on the table certified as dying by three separate groups of medical professionals, the thought of death didn't even enter my mind. I did learn, however, that my love of my Gwynniesis greater than the pain of death - good enough, anyway; can only test that hypothesis once. What was the original hypothesis, kill the fear of death in me dead like Raid?

beyond the threshold of eternity is beauty for all.

Hehehe, decided to give the natives a big ole hug now eh? They don't tell the same story. They tell a story of the same genre, fantasy. This would be like calling The Hobbit and The Last Unicorn the same story. People tell fantastic stories, native americans and egyptians are both people. Simple explanations rarely satisfy, I know.

(December 15, 2011 at 5:46 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Hehehe, decided to give the natives a big ole hug now eh? They don't tell the same story. They tell a story of the same genre, fantasy. This would be like calling The Hobbit and The Last Unicorn the same story. People tell fantastic stories, native americans and egyptians are both people. Simple explanations rarely satisfy, I know.

My research indicates there is a stark difference between creative fiction and creation mythology, and that difference is meme. I have been lead to consider, also through research, that Richard Dawkins had the right idea about meme but the wrong sourcing. The path I currently follow is ahead of the scientific frontier - superposition.

I do not intend to suit up and go to Mordor to slay Sauron, I intend to storm heaven and steal the eternal flame for my Gwynnies and all mankind - like Prometheus. Satan. Set.

Yeah, a theory of superposition has that real-world potential.

Whatever eternal flame you're looking for will be flowing directly from your own mind, where it's always been. Even assuming that these myths hold some key or secret, anything really beyond the use that they were invented for is giving them a great deal of credit which they haven't earned. Assumptions, assumptions. Perhaps there isn't anything to it at all, no flame, not even a spark. I'd make the analogy of trying to find the "eternal flame" in the body of knowledge we call phrenology.

(December 15, 2011 at 9:44 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Whatever eternal flame you're looking for will be flowing directly from your own mind, where it's always been. Even assuming that these myths hold some key or secret, anything really beyond the use that they were invented for is giving them a great deal of credit which they haven't earned. Assumptions, assumptions. Perhaps there isn't anything to it at all, no flame, not even a spark. I'd make the analogy of trying to find the "eternal flame" in the body of knowledge we call phrenology.

Let me state for the record that I'm an atheist - I ain't hiding in the bushes with any bullshit - now that that's past, do you have a reading comprehension problem?

Being civil about it, the only thing my processor giving me for insight into the inspiration for your comment is that you think I'm trying to justify some bullshit.

So here's what I've already done. Took all of the "holy Bible," reduced it, and stuck it into the tao te ching. What that means, is I can take my copy of the tao out into this Christian wasteland of Phoenix and kick over some tables in some temples.

That doesn't do shit other than self-gratification. If you got a problem with the tao te ching, I figure you're just broke in the head; or I don't know. Perhaps you are just insulting my integrity because you find me somehow offensive.

(December 15, 2011 at 4:57 pm)dtango Wrote: Campbell’s theory is no better than Daniken’s (if you know his theory about alien gods) because it is not based on what words of the ancients managed to reach us. It is no more than pure speculation.

A lot of that going around.

(December 15, 2011 at 4:57 pm)dtango Wrote: If you really want to know how the idea came to be, you have to start thinking for yourself.

Should have thought of that!

(December 15, 2011 at 4:57 pm)dtango Wrote: Answer the question: Why is it that the Native Americans tell the same story about gods as the Europeans, Asians and Africans tell, while they had lived for 14,000 in isolation?

That is precisely the question Campbell addresses.