(August 19, 2023 at 9:20 am)Barry Wrote:

(August 19, 2023 at 7:43 am)Ahriman Wrote: Well yeah, naturally. Beliefs are not such bad things to have, you just have to know your limits, i.e. don't allow yourself to believe in anything that's detrimental to any aspect of your health and well-being, and also don't expect other people to hold the same beliefs you hold.

I’m confused as to who is commenting here. I don’t mind if you think I’m foolish. I’m not demanding anyone else look foolish. Religion is voluntary, usually…. It makes me happy. 
Cheers Barry

I find the fake chummy nicknames Bar uses interesting.

Usually you get to know someone a little bit before doing that.

Not our Bar though. A fake friend, kinda like that gawd guy.

(August 19, 2023 at 9:27 am)Barry Wrote:

(August 19, 2023 at 9:18 am)LinuxGal Wrote: If God "always existed" then so did time, because "always" is a word that is effective only within the domain of time.  So why not worship time?  Time doesn't send me to hell for eating hot dogs on Lenten Fridays.

Hi LG, God exists outside of time. St Augustine said if we think we understand God, we don’t.

That's okay, because we understand time. Space-time has a light-cone structure, and causes of events must lie on or within the past light-cone of that event.  If God lies outside of time, then he cannot be the cause of any event within time.  And that pretty much wraps things up for God. But thanks for playing Stump the Atheist.

(August 19, 2023 at 9:37 am)Barry Wrote:

(August 19, 2023 at 8:52 am)Angrboda Wrote: Does a cause need to precede its effect?  Did God exist before the universe he created existed?

Yes, by definition. Cheers Barry

How can something precede another thing if there is no time?

(August 19, 2023 at 9:29 am)Barry Wrote:

(August 19, 2023 at 9:22 am)LinuxGal Wrote: Sure he does.

Genesis 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

Genesis is not supposed to be understood literally. Despite some fundamentalists doing so.

The Catholic Church interprets Genesis literally with the doctrine of Original Sin. If Adam and Eve never really ate the forbidden fruit, then babies don't need to get baptized.

Another checkmate

(August 19, 2023 at 9:16 am)Barry Wrote:

(August 19, 2023 at 9:10 am)LinuxGal Wrote: The first moment of the Big Bang was an event (a point in space and time).

The cause of any event must exist on or within the past light-cone of that event.

If God exists outside time, then he does not exist on or within the past light-cone of the Big Bang.

Therefore God is not the cause of the Big Bang.

So who or what was?

The event of the Big Bang has no past light cone. It's a singularity. Time begins there, just as England begins at Land's End.  So the Big Bang can have no preceding cause.

(August 19, 2023 at 9:11 am)Barry Wrote:

(August 19, 2023 at 7:48 am)Fake Messiah Wrote: Bible is only a claim, not evidence.

So is all written history
Cheers Barry

What does history have to do with the Bible? Bible is not history. Ikr, dragons, witches, wizards, angels, talking bushes, giants, global flood, talking donkeys, men with superhuman strength, and talking snakes are not history.

Barry

Quote:So how did the world begin?
My answer is that science proves nothing can be created from nothing in our material world, so the only explanation is that something external created the world.

Typical religitard fundamental error.
Science proves no such thing.

1. The problem with this ignorance is that there WAS NO MATERIAL WORLD until it already existed.
You cannot generalize about what was before the material world from how you think a material world works now.
You know absolutely nothing about the environment your gods live in / BEFORE the material world.
Science in a world that already exists cannot prove anything about the environment from which the material world came from, when there WAS NO material world.
Very simple basic logic.

2. Science knows about how 5 % of this universe works. We are just beginning to understand many things including black holes. 95 % of this universe is Dark Energy and Dark Matter.
You don't know enough to make any generalizations until they are understood.

3. This ignorant argument does not lead to a god. An omnipotent deity could have created evil robot universe makers whose job it is to make universes where innocent children get molested and die every day from cancers.

It is a well known fact (well not to ignorant religionists) that the laws of physics "break down at a singularity", and if the Big Bang was one, which some cosmologists think may be true,
even then, in this material world, causation and space-time (we know of no "time" separate from space) would not operate as we know of it.

https://bigthink.com/starts-with-a-bang/...ome%20real.

"Whoever said, “You can’t get something from nothing” must never have learned quantum physics. As long as you have empty space — the ultimate in physical nothingness — simply manipulating it in the right way will inevitably cause something to emerge. Collide two particles in the abyss of empty space, and sometimes additional particle-antiparticle pairs emerge. Take a meson and try to rip the quark away from the antiquark, and a new set of particle-antiparticle pairs will get pulled out of the empty space between them. And in theory, a strong enough electromagnetic field can rip particles and antiparticles out of the vacuum itself, even without any initial particles or antiparticles at all."

(August 19, 2023 at 10:04 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: I don't think you're going to find an argument that works Barry.  There's only one successful argument for a god.  Successful meaning that there's nothing obviously wrong with it.  The main criticism of that successful argument, ironically, is that it's not convincing.  Think about that.  The very best logical argument that man has ever devised, in all of his time very much trying to devise a successful argument, is unconvincing.  If the very best argument can't convince, then why would these bush league offerings in thread convince?  

Were you even convinced by them?  Was it because you don't know how the universe was created that you came to believe in christ, for example?  Or, if you prefer, do you really think that the people here are just terrible motherfuckers who harbor secret god beliefs?  Is that who you are, is that all that your christianity is?

Hi GN, nice to hear from you again. I don’t expect to find an “argument that works”. That’s beyond anyone. Faith is a gift from God. I don’t think anyone is a TMF nor do I know what the forum members believe. Or don’t believe. I do believe many people feel threatened by the idea of a creator God, because it might mean they are accountable for their sins. The Christian God is a God of forgiveness. Catholics can go to confession and our sins are forgiven by God through the agency of the priest. Very few baptised Catholics go to Mass in Australia (my country) or Europe. Less than 10%, it’s heading for 5%. Even less go to confession. Confession is very liberating. 
I digress.
Do I believe in Christ because I “don’t know how the universe was created”. Well, I’ve been a Catholic all my life, and always believed God created the world. Never doubted it. But think a lot about it. Not because of any of the theories against God, but because of the personal implications for me. If you don’t believe in God, that’s complicated too. 
The Christian god is a personal God. I’m on a lifetime journey trying to understand and to obey the “Greatest Commandment” of God given to us by Jesus Christ: to love god with all my heart, soul, strength and mind. Jesus said the second commandment is the same: to love my neighbour as myself. 
You don’t have to be a Christian to obey the second. And many Christians don’t. We all struggle with both of these. 
Cheers Barry