(December 18, 2011 at 4:28 pm)dtango Wrote: gods’ cold blood-type crimes.

What god, what crimes? Stories of gods, stories of crimes.

Stories about stories, in tango's case. He seems to have a cubbyhole for everything-and no-one besides him has ever managed to file the data so competently.

Whatevah.

(December 18, 2011 at 4:37 pm)Shell B Wrote: White people aren't the only ones killing "lesser" humans in the name of a deity. I think that needs to be made very clear here. That is an absolutely false idea. No matter who does it, it is wrong, but to treat it like a "white" plague of sorts is ridiculous and inaccurate.

.
I partly agree with you in this one: white people aren’t the only ones killing in the name of a deity, but in cold blood eliminating “lesser” people over long periods of time is a deed characterizing not exactly the entire white race but mostly the Caucasian part of it.

What is the original, the primordial genocide we know of?

The Jews enslaving the Canaanites, raping their women and finally exterminating them! But OT is a collection of fairy tales. No?
A nation has the courage to admit its own crimes (the Greeks say that it was Hercules who did the dirty work for them) but you (atheists) feel safer hiding behind your preconceptions. The Jews behaved, and still do, like gods, they tell the story of the gods seen from the view point of the gods, but they did pay the price for this inherited passion of them: they met another group of men playing gods and from victimizers became the victims.

What a coincidence! They both belong to the Caucasian part of the white race.

The myths insist that it was the gods who taught racism to humanity (I have asked Epimethean to tell me what the English term is for «O Καθαρμός της χώρας», but I am still waiting). What was the race of the gods according to mythyological reports?
…White!

What was the race of the men who left Africa 130,000 years ago and reached Northern Europe by 40,000 yeas ago?
... White!

(December 19, 2011 at 4:03 am)dtango Wrote: .I partly agree with you in this one: white people aren’t the only ones killing in the name of a deity, but in cold blood eliminating “lesser” people over long periods of time is a deed characterizing not exactly the entire white race but mostly the Caucasian part of it.

Still no. Sorry, but that just is not true.

Quote:What is the original, the primordial genocide we know of?

The genocide that brought about the term was the Armenian Genocide perpetrated by the Ottoman Turks.

Quote:The Jews enslaving the Canaanites, raping their women and finally exterminating them! But OT is a collection of fairy tales. No?
A nation has the courage to admit its own crimes (the Greeks say that it was Hercules who did the dirty work for them) but you (atheists) feel safer hiding behind your preconceptions.

I might point out that you are an atheist, a condescending one, at that. At any rate, the OT is a collection of fairy tales. Let's stick to real history.

Quote:The Jews behaved, and still do, like gods, they tell the story of the gods seen from the view point of the gods, but they did pay the price for this inherited passion of them: they met another group of men playing gods and from victimizers became the victims.

That smacks of antisemitism. The Jews behave like gods? Are you out of your fucking mind?

Quote:What a coincidence! They both belong to the Caucasian part of the white race.

Yeah, only one happened.

Quote:The myths insist that it was the gods who taught racism to humanity (I have asked Epimethean to tell me what the English term is for «O Καθαρμός της χώρας», but I am still waiting). What was the race of the gods according to mythyological reports?
…White!

You are only referring to a handful of religions here, buddy.

Quote:What was the race of the men who left Africa 130,000 years ago and reached Northern Europe by 40,000 yeas ago?
... White!

Absolutely fucking irrelevant. Hey, look, that group of people was white, therefore all genocide in the name of god was committed by white people! Nope. It doesn't sound any better when I say it.

In order for your assertion to work, you would have to consider all Asians and all Africans white as well. It doesn't float.

"I have asked Epimethean to tell me what the English term is for «O Καθαρμός της χώρας», but I am still waiting."

Must have missed that in amongst all your "original" thought. What the fuck are you on about? So what if there was a term for a "cleansing of a country?" You think that is specifically a reference to genocide? Holy shit, are you dense if that is all you can get out of it.

So, what shall we make of the possibility that Cro-Magnons overcame Neanderthals thanks to gonorrhea? Should the supreme gods in question then be αντιβιοτικά και αντιιικά? After all, gonorrhea was slowly vanquished.

Your bs is becoming toxic.

(December 19, 2011 at 4:27 am)Shell B Wrote: The genocide that brought about the term was the Armenian Genocide perpetrated by the Ottoman Turks.

Most probably you are right but it is not the term we are interested about but the act. The Armenian genocide was not the primordial genocide. That one was the one perpetrated (nice word, thanks, at the best I would have used “committed”) by Homo sapiens sapiens who exterminated Neanderthals

(December 19, 2011 at 4:27 am)Shell B Wrote: I might point out that you are an atheist, a condescending one, at that. At any rate, the OT is a collection of fairy tales. Let's stick to real history.

I am an atheist who loves the OT.
As regards “real history,” while we are discussing remote pre-history our chances to find real history are better with the OT than with the scholars of history. I am not kidding!
It was only last year that humanity found out that we, modern people were indeed scattered out from the Near East to all over the face of the earth. This fact (that we are hybrids Homo sapiens sapiens – Neanderthal, the product of the interbreeding of the two groups that took place in the Near East) the scientists found out only last year but the story of the Diaspora of the human race was there, recorded in the OT 2700 years ago. You may think that that’s just a coincidence: the Jews, as everybody else, wrote that the humans originated in their own land, but there is more to it. OT mentions one only language, a common language, before the dispersal and that cannot be a coincidence on top of another coincidence (reports from many cultures insist that men spoke one common language initially).

(December 19, 2011 at 4:27 am)Shell B Wrote: That smacks of antisemitism. The Jews behave like gods? Are you out of your fucking mind?

As regards anti-Semitism, I have no such problem. I admire Jews when they deserve it and the same I do for Greeks and any other nation.
It sounds strange to you to hear that the Jews behave like gods because you do not know how the gods behaved. The gods were preoccupied with their racial purity and Jews for millennia have been fighting for their racial purity. I do not live in the States but I know that second generation Greek-Americans can hardly speak Greek. Third generation coming, they are no Greeks any longer, thus honoring the land where they were born and live. Jews would remain Jews after hundreds of generations.

In Greek and Norse mythology the giants are killed by the gods. In the OT they are killed by the Jews themselves. The Jews assume the role of the gods and that is because their tradition had been filtered by intellect and made into history.

(December 19, 2011 at 4:27 am)Shell B Wrote: Absolutely fucking irrelevant. Hey, look, that group of people was white, therefore all genocide in the name of god was committed by white people! Nope. It doesn't sound any better when I say it.

Yes, because you insist on the phrase “in the name of the god.” That group of people, which did stop for a few thousand years in the near East producing us and leaving Near East as no Hss any longer but as hybrids themselves too, did not kill “in the name of god” because they were the gods who fashioned us the hybrids.

Do not expect Rhythm’s beloved Academia to displease the Church by admitting that the murderous Hss/gods had actually existed!

(December 19, 2011 at 11:40 am)Epimethean Wrote: Must have missed that in amongst all your "original" thought. What the fuck are you on about? So what if there was a term for a "cleansing of a country?"

OK. You do not happen to read about it so you do not know the proper term.

I’ll find it and will come back to explain all about it.

Please don't bother. You patronize everyone who explains to you your utter biased blindness. I cannot share that with you. You are arguing to support a passion-not supporting any reliable point.

(December 19, 2011 at 12:24 pm)dtango Wrote: Most probably you are right but it is not the term we are interested about but the act. The Armenian genocide was not the primordial genocide. That one was the one perpetrated (nice word, thanks, at the best I would have used “committed”) by Homo sapiens sapiens who exterminated Neanderthals

You have no evidence for this. We have some remains that show some homo sapiens engaged in conflict with some neanderthals. Entirely unsurprising between competing creatures. No evidence for any genocide whatsoever. Garbage

Quote:I am an atheist who loves the OT.
As regards “real history,” while we are discussing remote pre-history our chances to find real history are better with the OT than with the scholars of history. I am not kidding!
It was only last year that humanity found out that we, modern people were indeed scattered out from the Near East to all over the face of the earth. This fact (that we are hybrids Homo sapiens sapiens – Neanderthal, the product of the interbreeding of the two groups that took place in the Near East) the scientists found out only last year but the story of the Diaspora of the human race was there, recorded in the OT 2700 years ago. You may think that that’s just a coincidence: the Jews, as everybody else, wrote that the humans originated in their own land, but there is more to it. OT mentions one only language, a common language, before the dispersal and that cannot be a coincidence on top of another coincidence (reports from many cultures insist that men spoke one common language initially).

I'm a fan of the narrative in and of itself as well, though not a fan of the concepts described or the way in which they have been leveraged. The OT has not shown itself to be reliable, it has shown itself to be the opposite. So you and I like the story, that doesn't mean that it's accurate, or that there aren't better ways in which to investigate history. There are, and we use them all the time. We were fully modern human beings when we entered the middle east, that's what the evidence says. I don't know why you believe otherwise. You can pile up perceived coincidence all day long and you still won't have anything approaching evidence. It doesn't matter what anyone believes about coincidence. Belief is not evidence, for or against.

Quote:As regards anti-Semitism, I have no such problem. I admire Jews when they deserve it and the same I do for Greeks and any other nation.
It sounds strange to you to hear that the Jews behave like gods because you do not know how the gods behaved. The gods were preoccupied with their racial purity and Jews for millennia have been fighting for their racial purity. I do not live in the States but I know that second generation Greek-Americans can hardly speak Greek. Third generation coming, they are no Greeks any longer, thus honoring the land where they were born and live. Jews would remain Jews after hundreds of generations.

You have no idea how any god acted either, it's absurd to claim that you do. Unless you have evidence? Greeks remain greeks for hundreds of generations, in fact, there's never a point where our ancestry flips the switch. Snapshots in time amigo. Here you are making sweeping negative (by your personal value judgement no less) generalizations about a culture whilst denying the notion that you might be making sweeping and negative generalizations about a culture.......

Quote:In Greek and Norse mythology the giants are killed by the gods. In the OT they are killed by the Jews themselves. The Jews assume the role of the gods and that is because their tradition had been filtered by intellect and made into history.

You have no evidence that these are anything more than stories, and yet you continue to draw conclusions based upon your fantasy.

Quote:Yes, because you insist on the phrase “in the name of the god.” That group of people, which did stop for a few thousand years in the near East producing us and leaving Near East as no Hss any longer but as hybrids themselves too, did not kill “in the name of god” because they were the gods who fashioned us the hybrids.

More fantasy.

(December 19, 2011 at 12:55 pm)Rhythm Wrote: You have no evidence for this. We have some remains that show some homo sapiens engaged in conflict with some neanderthals. Entirely unsurprising between competing creatures. No evidence for any genocide whatsoever. Garbage

Possibly garbage, but you miss the main point here: you dismish a fresh idea as garbage right away.

Years ago, in Greek forums as well as in the Dawkins’ forum, I was having arguments with some guys who were adamant that Hss and Neanderthal did not interbreed and that even if Hss and Neanderthal had sexual contact, the offspring would have been sterile. In mythology gods fall in love with giantesses and women and they have kids and these kids produce more mixed blood kids and no problem is mentioned.
I did believe the myth and I was right.

According to the myth the gods, in the case of the Norse mythology, the Arch-murderer Hercules assisted by the gods in the Greek mythology, the men in the Hebrew, Native American and Celtic mythology, killed the giants. So in this particular subject I am dogmatic: The Hss did exterminate the Neanderthals!

(December 19, 2011 at 12:55 pm)Rhythm Wrote: I'm a fan of the narrative in and of itself as well, though not a fan of the concepts described or the way in which they have been leveraged. The OT has not shown itself to be reliable, it has shown itself to be the opposite.

I insist that we do not know yet enough of our past.
In the narrative of the OT what is of value are those stories in there that seem quite unreasonable. Why did those responsible for the texts allow, for example, the story where the wife of the patriarch urges her husband to go and have a son with her maid? Or why allow to remain the story of the incest?

If you have a guide to go by, a base where to stand, you can reach down to the original story, the story which the scholars knew because at their time the oral traditions were not yet forgotten. The story that should not be told!

By saying that myth is the product of imagination we deprive humanity of what memories it may have from its past. Thirty thousand years ago our ancestors lived side by side with the Neanderthals. Did they forget them entirely?
For almost 40,000 years they were producing Venus figurines. Why not transmitting along with the story of the worshipped Mother the story of their encounter with Neanderthals?

(December 19, 2011 at 12:55 pm)Rhythm Wrote: You have no idea how any god acted either, it's absurd to claim that you do. Unless you have evidence?

Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams, with ten thousand rivers of oil? Shall I offer my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul? (Micah 6:7)

In this case we cannot blame the class of the priests (either Hebrew or Greek) because they both made an effort to teach the people that the deity could be satisfied with an animal and there was no longer need to kill their firstborn (the cases of Iphigenia and Isaak)

You find out the way in which the gods behaved by the way people were acting.

Why was it that the gods wanted the firstborns killed?
According to the Sumerian texts the gods produced men by using the famous Mother-wombs. One way of acquiring these women was by kidnapping. As a rule they used virgin women so that they could be certain that they will bear their own children (the gods’ chilsren) and not their previous lovers’.
But it was not possible to steal only virgin women. The solution to this problem: the first kid to be born by a non-virgin woman in captivity shall be exterminated.

(December 19, 2011 at 12:55 pm)Rhythm Wrote: You have no evidence that these are anything more than stories, and yet you continue to draw conclusions based upon your fantasy.

Interesting stories, though, aren’t they?
Only it is a pity because the conclusions were supposed to drive crazy the theists, not the atheists too.

The trouble is that you haven't shown that these myths have anything to do with reality Tango. You're still misrepresenting mythologies in support of your argument and ignoring criticism completely. We contend that myths are the product of imagination because thats where evidence leads us. We do have myths that might have some basis in some event. The particulars of the event being lost to time, but more so being lost to the myth itself. I'm not arguing that this cannot be the case, because we do see evidence for this sort of thing. I'm arguing against your interpretation of all cultures myths based off of your interpretation of an egyptian funerary text. I'm beyond skeptical about the certainty you feel you have demonstrated regarding the subject and I'm to the point of calling you a fanatic, and your theory fantasy.

They are interesting stories, and so is the story you're presenting. Trouble is that interesting does not equal accurate, which I've been trying to express to you in so many ways I'm pretty much out of ideas.