(October 25, 2023 at 5:30 am)Leonardo17 Wrote:

(October 24, 2023 at 10:46 am)Anomalocaris Wrote: Israeli would like to strike at key facilities serving Iran’s nuclear weapon program.   To Israeli and particularly the Nutenyahu government the chance to able to do so without incurring the diplomatic and PR fallout of a largely unprovoked attack is a god send.     Conducting such a move would also have the advantage of putting pressure on Saudi Arabia to slow its own quest to acquire nuclear weapons as part of Saudi-Israeli rapprochement. 

From a grand strategic view,  Israel’s long investment in its armed forces and its long support by the U.S. has left Israel with defensive organization and array of armament that is much cherished but significantly mismatched with the need of securing it environments and providing adequate deterrence.     A high intensity long range air war to destroy Iran’s nuclear facility along with key parts of its air defence and ground forces capabilities however will serve to justify continued investment in the existing organizational and force stricture.

Many people would be happy to see that happen but:
- The IDF has 600,000 personnel, 400,000 of these are reservists.
- Hamas has 40,000 fighters and they are defending a city still full of civilians with an underground tunnel network (a bit like Vietnam)
- The number of Hezbollah fighters is between 40,000 and 100,000. They have between 40,000 and 150,000 missiles.
- The size of the Iranian army is 600,000 + 350,000 reservists. (Roughly 1 million).
 
The last issue: We saw in the US invasion of Iraq that none of these will really matter. But I still don’t believe the Israelis can wage war with Iran all by themselves. Also: I don’t think Iran would want something like that either.
 
So I would try not moving into Gaza at all. First you need to make Hamas (and Hezbollah) unable to recruit new people. For these you need to do the opposite of what has been done in the past 75 years: You create a zone of stability and peace. With stable governments who truly care for their own people. So that people can make plans for the future instead of joining criminal activities. Than you can bring democratically elected politicians and make sincere commitments for the future.
 
But there is truth in the opposite perspective too: Israel is still a power of annexation. A force of invasion in that region. It may not be willing to stop until it takes and colonizes all of Palestine. And that’s where the international community has to come in (in this completely hypothetical scenario of course )

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Hollywood celebrities are signing a petition and sending it to Joe Biden in which they say:

 
(…)
 
   Thank you for your unshakable moral conviction, leadership, and support for the Jewish people, who have been terrorized by Hamas since the group’s founding over 35 years ago, and for the Palestinians, who have also been terrorized, oppressed, and victimized by Hamas for the last 17 years that the group has been governing Gaza.
 
 We all want the same thing: Freedom for Israelis and Palestinians to live side by side in peace. Freedom from the brutal violence spread by Hamas. And most urgently, in this moment, freedom for the hostages. (…)
 
https://www.nohostageleftbehind.com/
 
 

The problem for Israel in all this is that in order to gain peace they must give up what they most want, Eretz Ysrael. And I fear that, given the nature of Israeli politics, they will find that impossible and simply go full pelt down the route they've been travelling so far: Endlösung.

This is sad for all the innocent people involved. Fuck what Hamas has done, and fuck what the Israeli government is doing also. Both sides are criminals. And fuck the propaganda from both sides. There should be no exclusively pro-Israel or pro-Palestine, there should be pro-peace for the people of both Palestine and Israel without blaming only one side for all the atrocities happening, and without falling prey to false rumors being spread through the media from both sides (which just aggravates the damage already being done).

(October 27, 2023 at 3:21 am)GrandizerII Wrote: This is sad for all the innocent people involved. Fuck what Hamas has done, and fuck what the Israeli government is doing also. Both sides are criminals. And fuck the propaganda from both sides. There should be no exclusively pro-Israel or pro-Palestine, there should be pro-peace for the people of both Palestine and Israel without blaming only one side for all the atrocities happening, and without falling prey to false rumors being spread through the media from both sides (which just aggravates the damage already being done).

I agree completely. However, this has always been one of those conflicts that doesn't seem to allow for reasonable opinions.

Boru

(October 27, 2023 at 3:21 am)GrandizerII Wrote: This is sad for all the innocent people involved. Fuck what Hamas has done, and fuck what the Israeli government is doing also. Both sides are criminals. And fuck the propaganda from both sides. There should be no exclusively pro-Israel or pro-Palestine, there should be pro-peace for the people of both Palestine and Israel without blaming only one side for all the atrocities happening, and without falling prey to false rumors being spread through the media from both sides (which just aggravates the damage already being done).

In my country (which is Muslim country and neither Turks nor Kurds are great fans of Israel), there is a 10 % group who want to support the Arabs. There is a 5-6 % group who want to support Israel. The rest do not want anything to do with this G.D. war.

(October 27, 2023 at 7:25 am)Leonardo17 Wrote:

(October 27, 2023 at 3:21 am)GrandizerII Wrote: This is sad for all the innocent people involved. Fuck what Hamas has done, and fuck what the Israeli government is doing also. Both sides are criminals. And fuck the propaganda from both sides. There should be no exclusively pro-Israel or pro-Palestine, there should be pro-peace for the people of both Palestine and Israel without blaming only one side for all the atrocities happening, and without falling prey to false rumors being spread through the media from both sides (which just aggravates the damage already being done).

In my country (which is Muslim country and neither Turks nor Kurds are great fans of Israel), there is a 10 % group who want to support the Arabs. There is a 5-6 % group who want to support Israel. The rest do not want anything to do with this G.D. war.

I'm from Lebanon, and the typical Lebanese is culturally conditioned to be anti-Israel. In fact, I have family that are strongly anti-Israel, and I've had arguments with them because I think both the Israeli side and the Arab/Muslim side are to blame for the continual fuck ups in Israel/Palestine.

^My wife is a descendant of Syrian Jews and is absolutely appalled by Israel’s policies and actions regarding Palestine.

Boru

I cannot be Pro-Israel in a world in which even Israelis are not completely pro-Israel.
 
Yet, did you see these images:
https://www.yahoo.com/news/israel-hamas-...20579.html
 
- Christian / Jew or Muslim there is a definition for groups of men who do such things. And these are the kind of people you have to go after and eliminate. I do agree with the Israeli Prime Minister on that.
 
Still: After this is done, If you do not want A Hamas 2.0, 3.0, 4.0 etc. you need to look at the roots of these organizations. You need to ask question “Why do people who are born as humans, become something like that”.
 
Meaning: All the Arabs of Palestine need to be given a prospect for a decent life. So politicians will have to solve that. I don’t know what the solution might me. But you cannot have a whole geography full of states and non-states in which young man are brought to conclusions like “This is the only thing I can do”. This should not be the only thing somebody could do for anybody.
 
To me this means stronger and more secular Middle-Easter governments + a Stronger / secular Palestinian state and (probably) the withdrawal of Israeli colonies and/or some other sort of permanent solution.
 
My point is, if you push people into the arms of political Islam (which is seen by many as the only possible way forward). You can expect them to become animals. And they will than act like animals. SO you have to solve the root of the issue or there will not be a Geography left for the state of Israel to exist.
 
(I mean, who does that?)