(November 10, 2023 at 2:14 pm)Gawdzilla Sama Wrote:

(November 10, 2023 at 1:52 pm)Istvan Wrote: This seems so vague it could apply to nearly anything people write or speak. The concept of propaganda at least implies a reference to power dynamics, doesn't it?

The personal attacks aren't making you look like the reasonable one here.

The definition I gave is accurate and doesn't exclude religion. Others, not so much.

As for attacks, it's a cruel world, Ahriman should sue, the system has failed for her/him/it.

Power dynamics, the Church is good at that. So you agree my definition is the accurate one. Thanks.

Militant states are much better at it than any church ever could be. What's your point?

(November 10, 2023 at 2:21 pm)Ahriman Wrote:

(November 10, 2023 at 2:14 pm)Gawdzilla Sama Wrote: The definition I gave is accurate and doesn't exclude religion. Others, not so much.

As for attacks, it's a cruel world, Ahriman should sue, the system has failed for her/him/it.

Power dynamics, the Church is good at that. So you agree my definition is the accurate one. Thanks.

Militant states are much better at it than any church ever could be. What's your point?

You've never opened a history book, have you?

(November 10, 2023 at 2:43 pm)Angrboda Wrote:

(November 10, 2023 at 2:21 pm)Ahriman Wrote: Militant states are much better at it than any church ever could be. What's your point?

You've never opened a history book, have you?

None of the history books I've ever read say that any church has been responsible for any notable amount of propaganda.

(November 10, 2023 at 2:43 pm)Angrboda Wrote: You've never opened a history book, have you?

Opening a book is easy. Reading one is harder.

(November 10, 2023 at 2:21 pm)Ahriman Wrote:

(November 10, 2023 at 2:14 pm)Gawdzilla Sama Wrote: The definition I gave is accurate and doesn't exclude religion. Others, not so much.

As for attacks, it's a cruel world, Ahriman should sue, the system has failed for her/him/it.

Power dynamics, the Church is good at that. So you agree my definition is the accurate one. Thanks.

Militant states are much better at it than any church ever could be. What's your point?

Wrong, religion creates more disaster than war, it's just okay because GOD FUCKING DID IT. You really aren't ready for this level.

(November 10, 2023 at 2:45 pm)Ahriman Wrote:

(November 10, 2023 at 2:43 pm)Angrboda Wrote: You've never opened a history book, have you?

None of the history books I've ever read say that any church has been responsible for any notable amount of propaganda.

Oh please, the only use you've ever had for a history book is to prop up the short leg of a table.

(November 10, 2023 at 12:23 pm)Ahriman Wrote:

(November 10, 2023 at 12:16 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: So one might say that modern religious art is driven not by spirituality but by money? Why would someone inspired by your god care at all about markets and so forth?

Real art doesn't worry about things like market. Real art happens because to the artist it must happen. Once you're worrying about markets, it's not art, it's a commodity.

I painted a picture to impress a girl and it's a pretty good picture. Does my picture not count as art?

It clearly didn't impress any chicks going by your whining in other threads. If you want to call it "art" that's your business.

(November 10, 2023 at 1:52 pm)Istvan Wrote:

(November 10, 2023 at 1:16 pm)Gawdzilla Sama Wrote: You picked a specific definition to try to avoid looking stupid. You failed. "Propaganda is communication intended to promote an organization, product, social idea, or belief."

This seems so vague it could apply to nearly anything people write or speak. The concept of propaganda at least implies a reference to power dynamics, doesn't it?

This is from Merriam-Webster:

Quote:propaganda
noun
pro·​pa·​gan·​da ˌprä-pə-ˈgan-də ˌprō-
Synonyms of propaganda
1
capitalized : a congregation of the Roman curia having jurisdiction over missionary territories and related institutions
2
: the spreading of ideas, information, or rumor for the purpose of helping or injuring an institution, a cause, or a person
3
: ideas, facts, or allegations spread deliberately to further one's cause or to damage an opposing cause
also : a public action having such an effect

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/propaganda

This is from Cambridge:

Quote:Meaning of propaganda in English

propaganda
noun [ U ] mainly disapproving
US /ˌprɑː.pəˈɡæn.də/ UK /ˌprɒp.əˈɡæn.də/
Add to word list
C2
information, ideas, opinions, or images, often only giving one part of an argument, that are broadcast, published, or in some other way spread with the intention of influencing people's opinions:
political/wartime propaganda
At school we were fed communist/right-wing propaganda.
One official dismissed the ceasefire as a mere propaganda exercise.

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dict...propaganda

And OED:

Quote:1.
1679–
Roman Catholic Church. Usually with the. (a) More fully Congregation of (the) Propaganda. A committee of Cardinals responsible for foreign missions, founded in 1622 by Pope Gregory XV (officially known since 1967 as the Congregation for the Evangelization of Peoples); (b) (more fully College of (the) Propaganda) a college established in Rome in 1627 by Pope Urban VIII for the training of missionaries. Now historical.
1679
And that the Roman Propaganda may not rise up in the Great Audit, against the Governours of the Reformed Church, they should be no less solicitous for it.
Bishop J. Gordon, Reformed Bishop ii. 31Citation details for Bishop J. Gordon, Reformed Bishop
…
1998
In 1833 he attended the College of the Propaganda in Rome, where he distinguished himself in languages.
B. L. Bassham, C. W. Chapman ix. 167Citation details for B. L. Bassham, C. W. Chapman
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CiteHistorical thesaurus
Roman Catholic Church
historical
2.
1790–
An organization, scheme, or movement for the propagation of a particular doctrine, practice, etc.
1790
All Kings have..a new race of Pretenders to contend with, the disciples of the propaganda at Paris or, as they call themselves, Les Ambassadeurs de genre humain.
J. MacPherson, Letter 27 September in A. Aspinall, Corresp. George, Prince of Wales (1964) vol. II. 98Citation details for J. MacPherson, Letter in A. Aspinall, Corresp. George, Prince of Wales
…
2001
The different propagandas of war and rampantly optimistic consumerism were being shovelled down audiences' throats.
Sunday Herald (Glasgow) (Nexis) 28 October 18Citation details for Sunday Herald (Glasgow)
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CiteHistorical thesaurus
3.
1822–
The systematic dissemination of information, esp. in a biased or misleading way, in order to promote a particular cause or point of view, often a political agenda. Also: information disseminated in this way; the means or media by which such ideas are disseminated. Cf. black propaganda n.
1822
I think you have done well positively to decline any interference with their propagandâ purposes.
T. Carlyle, Letter 7 December in Collected Letters T. & Jane Welsh Carlyle (1970) vol. II. 224Citation details for T. Carlyle, Letter in Collected Letters T. & Jane Welsh Carlyle
…
1990
A central debate is about education as propaganda or as study.
Times Educational Supplement 15 June B8/5Citation details for Times Educational Supplement
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https://www.oed.com/dictionary/propaganda_n?tl=true

So it appears to me that the stipulation that it emanates from a source of power isn't necessarily supported. It may be so, but that is not a firm connotation of the word.

(November 10, 2023 at 4:06 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: So it appears to me that the stipulation that it emanates from a source of power isn't necessarily supported. It may be so, but that is not a firm connotation of the word.

Fair enough. The pejorative aspect of the term implies that there's a battle between agendas contending for control of a narrative, and the content in question deliberately omits relevant information that doesn't support the preferred agenda:

Information, ideas, opinions, or images, often only giving one part of an argument, that are broadcast, published, or in some other way spread with the intention of influencing people's opinions

(November 10, 2023 at 4:49 pm)Istvan Wrote:

(November 10, 2023 at 4:06 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: So it appears to me that the stipulation that it emanates from a source of power isn't necessarily supported. It may be so, but that is not a firm connotation of the word.

Fair enough. The pejorative aspect of the term implies that there's a battle between agendas contending for control of a narrative, and the content in question deliberately omits relevant information that doesn't support the preferred agenda:

Information, ideas, opinions, or images, often only giving one part of an argument, that are broadcast, published, or in some other way spread with the intention of influencing people's opinions

Of course. That's why @Ahriman's definition is both self-invented and self-serving, and need not be regarded as valid support for his point.