(November 21, 2024 at 10:54 pm)Belacqua Wrote:

(November 21, 2024 at 2:24 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote: There are objective differences between the brains of trans people and cis people, that can be determined post-mortem or with expensive tests.

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8955456/

If a person had the brain formation which is associated with being cis, and said sincerely that he was trans, which would you believe?

I'm not sure that a person with the brain formation associated with being cis would be able to 'sincerely' say that he was trans.

Boru

(November 22, 2024 at 3:07 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:

(November 21, 2024 at 10:54 pm)Belacqua Wrote: If a person had the brain formation which is associated with being cis, and said sincerely that he was trans, which would you believe?

I'm not sure that a person with the brain formation associated with being cis would be able to 'sincerely' say that he was trans.

Boru

I didn't choose to be hetero male. I assume on that basis that those who feel differently dd not choose as well, especially since their layout exposes them to the bigotry on display here.

(November 22, 2024 at 3:41 am)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: I didn't choose to be hetero male. I assume on that basis that those who feel differently dd not choose as well, especially since their layout exposes them to the bigotry on display here.

That's always been the benchmark that I've used. I'm cis hetero, was born cis hetero, and will almost certainly die cis hetero. I had absolutely no choice in the matter, so why would I believe that anybody else did? When I see somebody desperately pleading for the sort of gender-affirming surgery that I can't even comprehend undergoing I'm going to assume that they really need it for their well-being.

(November 22, 2024 at 3:41 am)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:

(November 22, 2024 at 3:07 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: I'm not sure that a person with the brain formation associated with being cis would be able to 'sincerely' say that he was trans.

Boru

I didn't choose to be hetero male. I assume on that basis that those who feel differently dd not choose as well, especially since their layout exposes them to the bigotry on display here.

Exactly. I could go round all day saying that I'm gay or trans, but it wouldn't be sincere. And the bigotry is certainly and issue (not just here, obviously). Why someone's gender doesn't confirm to their biological sex doesn't justify discrimination.

Boru

(November 21, 2024 at 10:59 pm)Belacqua Wrote: I have never said that anyone should be denied the right to identify any way they wish. In fact I've said very clearly that I support trans people and their right to choose. 

I have also said that crime against them, as against anyone, is bad. 

Nice to see that you can talk the talk.

Quote:So I don't think I'm applying the standard of objectivity unequally.

Know Thyself

(November 22, 2024 at 3:41 am)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: I didn't choose to be hetero male. I assume on that basis that those who feel differently dd not choose as well, especially since their layout exposes them to the bigotry on display here.

This is basically how intersubjectivity works. You have no empirical evidence to tell you how others feel, but you can extrapolate based on your own experience.

(November 22, 2024 at 4:56 am)Belacqua Wrote:

(November 22, 2024 at 3:41 am)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: I didn't choose to be hetero male. I assume on that basis that those who feel differently dd not choose as well, especially since their layout exposes them to the bigotry on display here.

This is basically how intersubjectivity works. You have no empirical evidence to tell you how others feel, but you can extrapolate based on your own experience.

Just because the experience is subjective, like pain for example, does not mean we cannot objectively verify its existence. You are conflating the one with the other, and wrongly assuming that having a gender that differs from your biological gender is unsupported by any objective evidence, see above your claim we must rely solely on the subjective claim of the person, this is not the case.

(November 22, 2024 at 7:11 am)Sheldon Wrote:

(November 22, 2024 at 4:56 am)Belacqua Wrote: This is basically how intersubjectivity works. You have no empirical evidence to tell you how others feel, but you can extrapolate based on your own experience.

Just because the experience is subjective, like pain for example, does not mean we cannot objectively verify its existence. 

We cannot know what another person's pain is like. We assume it is the same kind of thing that we feel, because we describe it in the same way and react in the same way. This is what intersubjectivity means.

What can we do to objectively verify that pain exists other than this? (An fMRI shows that some activity is occurring, but does not tell us what the experience is like for the person having the experience.)

Quote:You are conflating the one with the other, and wrongly assuming that having a gender that differs from your biological gender is unsupported by any objective evidence, see above your claim we must rely solely on the subjective claim of the person, this is not the case.

What objective evidence do we have that an individual's gender differs from their biological sex? 

For example, if a person were to make this claim, how do we verify that they are speaking the truth and not lying?

(November 21, 2024 at 10:54 pm)Belacqua Wrote:

(November 21, 2024 at 2:24 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote: There are objective differences between the brains of trans people and cis people, that can be determined post-mortem or with expensive tests.

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8955456/

If a person had the brain formation which is associated with being cis, and said sincerely that he was trans, which would you believe?

I wouldn't fucking care, and I don't understand the mindset that is obsessed by it, and wants to eliminate it.

(November 22, 2024 at 4:56 am)Belacqua Wrote:

(November 22, 2024 at 3:41 am)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: I didn't choose to be hetero male. I assume on that basis that those who feel differently dd not choose as well, especially since their layout exposes them to the bigotry on display here.

This is basically how intersubjectivity works. You have no empirical evidence to tell you how others feel, but you can extrapolate based on your own experience.

I don't know how you would feel after being hit in the face with a two-by-four, but that doesn't mean that would give you an orgasm. There's many subjective experiences that we cannot share, but many we can imagine -- at least if we have a sense of empathy.