(April 30, 2025 at 4:11 am)Belacqua Wrote: Now here's the part where I get everybody mad at me again: 

Let's say that we are in the tribe of atheist/Democrat/"trust-the-science" types. I am not convinced that this is the very bestest number one tribe, superior to all the others. All the tribes have their good points and bad points, or else nobody would stay in them. From our point of view, given our preferences, ours will of course seem best, because we have chosen a tribe that aligns with our view, and then once we're in the tribe it reinforces and informs further views in line with tribal thinking. 

The fact that our tribe seems so compatible with neoliberalism, which has serious drawbacks, makes me think we could do better.

But I think it is our duty to remain very wary of tribal thinking, and remain open to the qualities in people very unlike ourselves. I mean, it's easy to focus on Fox News, which is of course horrible. But I'm not convinced that people who believe what CNN or MSNBC are telling them are all that much smarter.

First, everything has its pluses and minuses in different proportions, or tradeoffs if you prefer.  It's inescapable.  Politics are therefore typically about assessing and setting priorities, not usually about good versus evil.  Nevertheless, I hate hatred and am intolerant to intolerance because that is what they deserve -- stiff opposition.  So democracy itself, as one example, has serious drawbacks, but that doesn't mean there is any better system available to us weak-minded humans.  Trumpism certainly isn't.

Second, the house is on fire in the U.S., which means we can dispense with the usual liberal mea culpas for the time being.

Third, neither of the above is saying you are wrong in principle.

As an American, I do the best I can with what I have access to.  But mostly I keep to myself because I don't care enough about other people to do more -- not as long as I remain a misanthropist.  I post at atheist forums because atheists are (usually) the only reasonable and straightforward people I have come to know of in a lifetime.  

If you have access to other, more reasonable people, good for you.  

(April 30, 2025 at 4:11 am)Belacqua Wrote: But I think it is our duty to remain very wary of tribal thinking, and remain open to the qualities in people very unlike ourselves. I mean, it's easy to focus on Fox News, which is of course horrible. But I'm not convinced that people who believe what CNN or MSNBC are telling them are all that much smarter.

I am.  Watching faux actually does make you dumb, in addition to other fun shit like being a noted cormibidity with the plague.

(April 30, 2025 at 6:13 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote:

(April 30, 2025 at 4:11 am)Belacqua Wrote: But I think it is our duty to remain very wary of tribal thinking, and remain open to the qualities in people very unlike ourselves. I mean, it's easy to focus on Fox News, which is of course horrible. But I'm not convinced that people who believe what CNN or MSNBC are telling them are all that much smarter.

I am.  Watching faux actually does make you dumb, in addition to other fun shit like being a noted cormibidity with the plague.

I'd be willing to bet there are other comorbidities associated as well. Alcoholism, smoking, obesity, and so on.

Gold coin hordes, mail order catheter caches, and boner pill stashes. It's amazing to me that faux viewers don't realize how much contempt faux holds them in.

(April 30, 2025 at 4:11 am)Belacqua Wrote: But I think it is our duty to remain very wary of tribal thinking, and remain open to the qualities in people very unlike ourselves. I mean, it's easy to focus on Fox News, which is of course horrible. But I'm not convinced that people who believe what CNN or MSNBC are telling them are all that much smarter.

And here it is again: The equivocation and minimization: "Watching Fox is like watching any other news channel: You get misinformed."

(April 30, 2025 at 5:43 am)Alan V Wrote:

(April 30, 2025 at 4:11 am)Belacqua Wrote: Now here's the part where I get everybody mad at me again: 

Let's say that we are in the tribe of atheist/Democrat/"trust-the-science" types. I am not convinced that this is the very bestest number one tribe, superior to all the others. All the tribes have their good points and bad points, or else nobody would stay in them. From our point of view, given our preferences, ours will of course seem best, because we have chosen a tribe that aligns with our view, and then once we're in the tribe it reinforces and informs further views in line with tribal thinking. 

The fact that our tribe seems so compatible with neoliberalism, which has serious drawbacks, makes me think we could do better.

But I think it is our duty to remain very wary of tribal thinking, and remain open to the qualities in people very unlike ourselves. I mean, it's easy to focus on Fox News, which is of course horrible. But I'm not convinced that people who believe what CNN or MSNBC are telling them are all that much smarter.

First, everything has its pluses and minuses in different proportions, or tradeoffs if you prefer.  It's inescapable.  Politics are therefore typically about assessing and setting priorities, not usually about good versus evil.  Nevertheless, I hate hatred and am intolerant to intolerance because that is what they deserve -- stiff opposition.  So democracy itself, as one example, has serious drawbacks, but that doesn't mean there is any better system available to us weak-minded humans.  Trumpism certainly isn't.

All very true.

Quote:Second, the house is on fire in the U.S., which means we can dispense with the usual liberal mea culpas for the time being.

Well, to overextend the metaphor, if the house is on fire I want to know why 911 isn't picking up, and why the firemen can't find their hoses. 

The danger of tribalism is that we can displace all the wrong-doing onto our enemy tribe, while turning a blind eye to our own grievous mistakes.

(May 1, 2025 at 1:28 am)Belacqua Wrote: Well, to overextend the metaphor, if the house is on fire I want to know why 911 isn't picking up, and why the firemen can't find their hoses. 

To beat it into the ground, I'm either grabbing a fire extinguisher or garden hose, or, if more serious, beating on the neighbors' doors to alert them to the danger.

We will look at the systemic issues in due course, providing the town doesn't burn down.

To belabor it even further -- most fires can be and are best handled immediately. Put the lid on the pan rather than wring your hands about the bureaucracy.