(April 30, 2025 at 4:11 am)Belacqua Wrote: Now here's the part where I get everybody mad at me again: 

Let's say that we are in the tribe of atheist/Democrat/"trust-the-science" types. I am not convinced that this is the very bestest number one tribe, superior to all the others. All the tribes have their good points and bad points, or else nobody would stay in them. From our point of view, given our preferences, ours will of course seem best, because we have chosen a tribe that aligns with our view, and then once we're in the tribe it reinforces and informs further views in line with tribal thinking. 

The fact that our tribe seems so compatible with neoliberalism, which has serious drawbacks, makes me think we could do better.

But I think it is our duty to remain very wary of tribal thinking, and remain open to the qualities in people very unlike ourselves. I mean, it's easy to focus on Fox News, which is of course horrible. But I'm not convinced that people who believe what CNN or MSNBC are telling them are all that much smarter.

First, everything has its pluses and minuses in different proportions, or tradeoffs if you prefer.  It's inescapable.  Politics are therefore typically about assessing and setting priorities, not usually about good versus evil.  Nevertheless, I hate hatred and am intolerant to intolerance because that is what they deserve -- stiff opposition.  So democracy itself, as one example, has serious drawbacks, but that doesn't mean there is any better system available to us weak-minded humans.  Trumpism certainly isn't.

Second, the house is on fire in the U.S., which means we can dispense with the usual liberal mea culpas for the time being.

Third, neither of the above is saying you are wrong in principle.

As an American, I do the best I can with what I have access to.  But mostly I keep to myself because I don't care enough about other people to do more -- not as long as I remain a misanthropist.  I post at atheist forums because atheists are (usually) the only reasonable and straightforward people I have come to know of in a lifetime.  

If you have access to other, more reasonable people, good for you.  

(April 30, 2025 at 4:11 am)Belacqua Wrote: But I think it is our duty to remain very wary of tribal thinking, and remain open to the qualities in people very unlike ourselves. I mean, it's easy to focus on Fox News, which is of course horrible. But I'm not convinced that people who believe what CNN or MSNBC are telling them are all that much smarter.

I am.  Watching faux actually does make you dumb, in addition to other fun shit like being a noted cormibidity with the plague.

(April 30, 2025 at 6:13 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote:

(April 30, 2025 at 4:11 am)Belacqua Wrote: But I think it is our duty to remain very wary of tribal thinking, and remain open to the qualities in people very unlike ourselves. I mean, it's easy to focus on Fox News, which is of course horrible. But I'm not convinced that people who believe what CNN or MSNBC are telling them are all that much smarter.

I am.  Watching faux actually does make you dumb, in addition to other fun shit like being a noted cormibidity with the plague.

I'd be willing to bet there are other comorbidities associated as well. Alcoholism, smoking, obesity, and so on.

Gold coin hordes, mail order catheter caches, and boner pill stashes. It's amazing to me that faux viewers don't realize how much contempt faux holds them in.

(April 30, 2025 at 4:11 am)Belacqua Wrote: But I think it is our duty to remain very wary of tribal thinking, and remain open to the qualities in people very unlike ourselves. I mean, it's easy to focus on Fox News, which is of course horrible. But I'm not convinced that people who believe what CNN or MSNBC are telling them are all that much smarter.

And here it is again: The equivocation and minimization: "Watching Fox is like watching any other news channel: You get misinformed."

(April 30, 2025 at 5:43 am)Alan V Wrote:

(April 30, 2025 at 4:11 am)Belacqua Wrote: Now here's the part where I get everybody mad at me again: 

Let's say that we are in the tribe of atheist/Democrat/"trust-the-science" types. I am not convinced that this is the very bestest number one tribe, superior to all the others. All the tribes have their good points and bad points, or else nobody would stay in them. From our point of view, given our preferences, ours will of course seem best, because we have chosen a tribe that aligns with our view, and then once we're in the tribe it reinforces and informs further views in line with tribal thinking. 

The fact that our tribe seems so compatible with neoliberalism, which has serious drawbacks, makes me think we could do better.

But I think it is our duty to remain very wary of tribal thinking, and remain open to the qualities in people very unlike ourselves. I mean, it's easy to focus on Fox News, which is of course horrible. But I'm not convinced that people who believe what CNN or MSNBC are telling them are all that much smarter.

First, everything has its pluses and minuses in different proportions, or tradeoffs if you prefer.  It's inescapable.  Politics are therefore typically about assessing and setting priorities, not usually about good versus evil.  Nevertheless, I hate hatred and am intolerant to intolerance because that is what they deserve -- stiff opposition.  So democracy itself, as one example, has serious drawbacks, but that doesn't mean there is any better system available to us weak-minded humans.  Trumpism certainly isn't.

All very true.

Quote:Second, the house is on fire in the U.S., which means we can dispense with the usual liberal mea culpas for the time being.

Well, to overextend the metaphor, if the house is on fire I want to know why 911 isn't picking up, and why the firemen can't find their hoses. 

The danger of tribalism is that we can displace all the wrong-doing onto our enemy tribe, while turning a blind eye to our own grievous mistakes.

(May 1, 2025 at 1:28 am)Belacqua Wrote: Well, to overextend the metaphor, if the house is on fire I want to know why 911 isn't picking up, and why the firemen can't find their hoses. 

To beat it into the ground, I'm either grabbing a fire extinguisher or garden hose, or, if more serious, beating on the neighbors' doors to alert them to the danger.

We will look at the systemic issues in due course, providing the town doesn't burn down.

To belabor it even further -- most fires can be and are best handled immediately. Put the lid on the pan rather than wring your hands about the bureaucracy.

(April 30, 2025 at 4:11 am)Belacqua Wrote: Now here's the part where I get everybody mad at me again: 

Let's say that we are in the tribe of atheist/Democrat/"trust-the-science" types.

Here is your first mistake. There is no atheist tribe just like there is no tribe for people who don't like broccoli. Beyond lack of faith I have nothing to do with other atheists (and even then some atheists would say that they believe there is no god). People whose common denominator is that they aren't x can't really form a tribe (issue of there being tribe in the first place aside). Next - quite a few people here aren't Democrats and some might not be democrats at all. I certainly would name myself so - I'm left winger but living under democracy for my entire life I wouldn't rate it all that high when it can't even prevent right of the half of population to be taken away or when it gives fascists opportunity to gain power legally. Lastly each and everyone of us trust the science - unless you don't use modern technology, don't walk on the bridges and cure your ailments with the help of witch doctor.

Quote:I am not convinced that this is the very bestest number one tribe, superior to all the others. All the tribes have their good points and bad points, or else nobody would stay in them. From our point of view, given our preferences, ours will of course seem best, because we have chosen a tribe that aligns with our view, and then once we're in the tribe it reinforces and informs further views in line with tribal thinking.

I'm not convinced that there is tribe at all. This tribe crap reminds me of internet christian trolls who label atheists as tribalistic after they shockingly refuse to say "your shitty argument based on childhood indoctrination and feelz convinced us, there is a god". Obviously people here have some points of agreement but similarly there are disagreements and different perspectives.

Quote:The fact that our tribe seems so compatible with neoliberalism, which has serious drawbacks, makes me think we could do better.

I don't know who you include when you say "our tribe" but for me neoliberalism is barely better than fascism and maybe even more damaging as it spreads it's cancerous cells to this day. In fact austerity one of neoliberalism key policies seemed to help fascism appear as per The Capital Order: How Economists Invented Austerity and Paved the Way to Fascism by Clara Mattei.

Quote:But I think it is our duty to remain very wary of tribal thinking, and remain open to the qualities in people very unlike ourselves. I mean, it's easy to focus on Fox News, which is of course horrible. But I'm not convinced that people who believe what CNN or MSNBC are telling them are all that much smarter.

I don't really think that those of us who aren't under oath have duties but if were so then this duty would be to enlighten unenlightened. No need to be open for fascist idiocy, neoliberal pathological individuality, or racism absurdity (as those are qualities that some people unlike myself held). I certainly wouldn't like all people to be like myself but there are things that human of XXI century should unambiguously reject be it genocide (yes, even when commited by israel*), fascism or fairy tales about trickle down economics which only result in impoverished and desperate masses.

*Per Amnesty International israel is commiting genocide against Palestinians - https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2...s-in-gaza/

(May 1, 2025 at 2:07 am)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:

(May 1, 2025 at 1:28 am)Belacqua Wrote: Well, to overextend the metaphor, if the house is on fire I want to know why 911 isn't picking up, and why the firemen can't find their hoses. 

To beat it into the ground, I'm either grabbing a fire extinguisher or garden hose, or, if more serious, beating on the neighbors' doors to alert them to the danger.

We will look at the systemic issues in due course, providing the town doesn't burn down.

To belabor it even further -- most fires can be and are best handled immediately. Put the lid on the pan rather than wring your hands about the bureaucracy.

Meanwhile most Republicans are saying to themselves and others, "This is fine." And they are in control of the government.

Belacqua wants to find common ground between fact-based policies and lies. So he is doing his part to move the Overton Window toward outright lies. ("Tariffs aren't taxes," "Climate change is a hoax," "The 2020 election was stolen," "I will end the war in Ukraine on day one," "We are fighting waste and fraud," etc.).

He hasn't done his homework.

(May 1, 2025 at 5:16 am)Alan V Wrote:

(May 1, 2025 at 2:07 am)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: To beat it into the ground, I'm either grabbing a fire extinguisher or garden hose, or, if more serious, beating on the neighbors' doors to alert them to the danger.

Meanwhile most Republicans are saying to themselves and others, "This is fine."  And they are in control of the government.

Belacqua wants to find common ground between fact-based policies and lies.  So he is doing his part to move the Overton Window toward outright lies (about economics, climate change, democracy, etc.).

He hasn't done his homework.

I am against lies told by members of any political party.

Your accusation is bizarre.