(May 2, 2025 at 10:03 am)John 6IX Breezy Wrote:

(May 2, 2025 at 1:35 am)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: Do you think doubt and faith are compatible?

Yes, I think doubt is integral to faith. 

Religious faith, is defined as "strong belief in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual conviction rather than proof."

I don't see how doubt is an integral part of strong belief? 

Quote:I don't see faith as the absence of doubt but rather doubt as the context in which faith occurs. It almost doesn't make sense to have faith in the absence of doubt.

It seems even more incongruous, to assert that a strong belief makes no sense in the absence of doubt ?

Quote:This is because faith isn't blind belief, it is trust. 

No, that's the primary definition, "complete trust or confidence in someone or something", it differs from how religious faith is defined, and this false equivalence has given us the comedy gold of religious apologists asserting "I don't have enough faith to be an atheist", as if we won't notice it is fallacious sophistry. 

Quote:And trust requires a context where you have good reasons to trust, but not enough to achieve certainty.

Give us your best reason for believing a deity exists or is possible? Only if its "spiritual conviction" I have no idea what that means or how it can be used to evidence anything, it sound purely subjective to me. 

Quote:For example, trusting a friend: you've likely already built rapport with that person and have enough evidence to take them at their word, and yet trust is always required precisely because there is always uncertainty.

Another false equivalence, I trust people based on sufficient, and sufficiently objective evidence, and my trust matches that evidence. I know of none for an extant deity, or that can demonstrate a deity / deities, or anything supernatural is even possible. Also you are using the word trust here again, but this definition of faith, using the word trust, differs from the religious definition, and again trust (for me) is evidence based, and not only do I remain dubious about theistic and deistic claims, and therefore an atheist, I have no use for religious faith, as the doctrines of religions have failed to demonstrate any objective evidence for any deity, or anything supernatural, or that they are possible.

Faith in the Bible is an action, which makes it consistent with trust and inconsistent with belief. A belief is something like a proposition that one thinks is true, and nothing more. Even the devils are said to believe, so clearly that's not the source of virtue. In the Bible, every example of faith requires someone to do something: Noah has to build a boat before there's a sign of rain, Peter has to step out into the water, and so on. Every story requires the protagonist to do something in the face of uncertainty, and that something is trusting God.

What did the fig tree have to do?

Bear figs.

(May 2, 2025 at 1:50 pm)John 6IX Breezy Wrote: Bear figs.

Out of season, when it was unnatural for them to do so. Doesn't speak well of Jesus's ability to manage his own expectations. You might want to go with metaphor on this one if you can think of a good one.

It's an object lesson, so yes, the metaphor is the point. Admittedly, I don't know how the fig tree story relates to what I had said previously. I'm just responding for the sake of responding.

So the fig tree didn't trust god enough to go against nature. And was therefore punished.

How many people, Breezy, do you manage to convince?

I mean, you're personifying the fig tree story to push it to absurdity. The story isn’t about trees trusting God—it’s about people bearing fruit when they appear outwardly religious. I don't see why that should be a contentious lesson. If anything it shows it's not enough the believe in Christianity, faith actually has to do something productive.

(May 2, 2025 at 2:19 pm)John 6IX Breezy Wrote: I mean, you're personifying the fig tree story to push it to absurdity. The story isn’t about trees trusting God—it’s about people bearing fruit when they appear outwardly religious. I don't see why that should be a contentious lesson. If anything it shows it's not enough the believe in Christianity, faith actually has to do something productive.

And you are doing what that is productive by posting this kind of repetitive preaching on an atheist forum?  Do you at least type faster?

Conversation is always productive, some more than others, of course. I would type faster, but I'm not at my computer. I'm having my piano tuned by someone so my attention is divided in two.