(July 1, 2025 at 10:16 pm)Disagreeable Wrote: So if there is only one kind of substance, then is that substance conscious or non-conscious?

Consciousness is not a substance because it is abstract information processing.  It is both virtual and entirely brain-dependent.  

Biosemiotics is the study of how biology can encode information.  DNA is one example, but consciousness is another.  You are reifying consciousness.

(July 1, 2025 at 10:16 pm)Disagreeable Wrote: We only have evidence of the experiential.

We have evidence of both the experiential and the physical.  As you pointed out, that is a problem.

(July 1, 2025 at 10:16 pm)Disagreeable Wrote: But life can be explained in terms of non living parts. But subjective experience can't be explained in terms of non-subjective experience. Life from non-life isn't radical in terms of its emergence. Consciousness from non-consciousness is radical.

As I mentioned, consciousness did not emerge from non-living matter but from life.  Consciousness evolved gradually, along with life, from lesser forms of subjective experiences.

(July 1, 2025 at 10:16 pm)Disagreeable Wrote: Again, we can explain life in terms of things that are not alive. But we can't explain consciousness in terms of things that are not conscious.

Perhaps you and I can't, but scientists are making great progress in understanding consciousness.  See this post about the progress that scientists are making.

(July 1, 2025 at 10:16 pm)Disagreeable Wrote: Life doesn't have a use for consciousness either. We could react as if we were in pain, for instance, without actually having to feel it.

It's thought by some scientists that to store all possible reactions to circumstances in our brains would take much larger brains.  So consciousness evolved as an economical shortcut, a way to improvise reactions based on perceived circumstances.  In other words, just because something might be possible doesn't mean that was the way we evolved.

(July 1, 2025 at 10:16 pm)Disagreeable Wrote: The consciousness emerges from the brain which is consciousness-involving. And just because we don't remember being conscious isn't evidence that we weren't or aren't conscious.

The brain activity which underlies consciousness is not in evidence when we are in deep sleep, in a coma, or under an anesthetic.  Consciousness has signatures, which are discussed in the link I just gave you.

You really do need to read about consciousness research.  The time has passed when philosophers could merely speculate on such issues, and their ideas were just as good as anyone else's.

The way the most atheists explain it: An amoeba hatched a dinosauric, then birds evolved. Then there was a series of advantageous mutations for bipedal locomotion & brain organ development, then alas, consciousness.

(July 3, 2025 at 2:13 am)snowtracks Wrote: The way the most atheists explain it: An amoeba hatched a dinosauric, then birds evolved. Then there was a series of advantageous mutations for bipedal locomotion & brain organ development, then alas, consciousness.

I know of no atheists who explain it that way, But I do know a lot of Christians who explain it away by invoking magic.

Now go play with your dolly. Grown-ups are talking.

Boru

(July 3, 2025 at 2:13 am)snowtracks Wrote: The way the most atheists explain it: An amoeba hatched a dinosauric, then birds evolved. Then there was a series of advantageous mutations for bipedal locomotion & brain organ development, then alas, consciousness.

Cute strawman from a nut who believes that goddunnit.

(July 3, 2025 at 7:29 am)Paleophyte Wrote:

(July 3, 2025 at 2:13 am)snowtracks Wrote: The way the most atheists explain it: An amoeba hatched a dinosauric, then birds evolved. Then there was a series of advantageous mutations for bipedal locomotion & brain organ development, then alas, consciousness.

Cute strawman from a nut who believes that goddunnit.

Theists believe that God created us, but the reality is that our parents did.  Our parents are both necessary and sufficient causes of our existence.  

If you follow that reasoning back through biological and stellar evolution, then God's assumed attributes slowly disappear the further back you go.  In the end, there is nothing left that resembles the theistic God, at least according to modern cosmology.  Instead you have some variety of quantum weirdness at the beginning.  How the universe actually works has proven to be complex and counter-intuitive.

I think a lot of the confusion about consciousness comes from the assumption that consciousness is our self rather than a brain function which is just a part of our self.  That self is a working body with a brain and a nervous system, and it is the product of millions of years of evolution.  The human brain is likely the most complex object in the natural world, and scientists are still figuring out how it works.  That it can do some amazing tricks therefore shouldn't be surprising.

(July 3, 2025 at 2:13 am)snowtracks Wrote: The way the most atheists explain it: An amoeba hatched a dinosauric, then birds evolved. Then there was a series of advantageous mutations for bipedal locomotion & brain organ development, then alas, consciousness.

You think MAGIC is more plausible?

(July 3, 2025 at 12:16 pm)Deesse23 Wrote:

(July 3, 2025 at 2:13 am)snowtracks Wrote: The way the most atheists explain it: An amoeba hatched a dinosauric, then birds evolved. Then there was a series of advantageous mutations for bipedal locomotion & brain organ development, then alas, consciousness.

You think MAGIC is more plausible?

Do you even have to ask?

Boru

(July 3, 2025 at 7:52 am)Alan V Wrote:

(July 3, 2025 at 7:29 am)Paleophyte Wrote: Cute strawman from a nut who believes that goddunnit.

Theists believe that God created us, but the reality is that our parents did.  Our parents are both necessary and sufficient causes of our existence.  

If you follow that reasoning back through biological and stellar evolution, then God's assumed attributes slowly disappear the further back you go.  In the end, there is nothing left that resembles the theistic God, at least according to modern cosmology.  Instead you have some variety of quantum weirdness at the beginning.  How the universe actually works has proven to be complex and counter-intuitive.

I think a lot of the confusion about consciousness comes from the assumption that consciousness is our self rather than a brain function which is just a part of our self.  That self is a working body with a brain and a nervous system, and it is the product of millions of years of evolution.  The human brain is likely the most complex object in the natural world, and scientists are still figuring out how it works.  That it can do some amazing tricks therefore shouldn't be surprising.

They already know how it works. Turns out, it's not really that complex.

(July 3, 2025 at 12:22 pm)Ahriman Wrote:

(July 3, 2025 at 7:52 am)Alan V Wrote: Theists believe that God created us, but the reality is that our parents did.  Our parents are both necessary and sufficient causes of our existence.  

If you follow that reasoning back through biological and stellar evolution, then God's assumed attributes slowly disappear the further back you go.  In the end, there is nothing left that resembles the theistic God, at least according to modern cosmology.  Instead you have some variety of quantum weirdness at the beginning.  How the universe actually works has proven to be complex and counter-intuitive.

I think a lot of the confusion about consciousness comes from the assumption that consciousness is our self rather than a brain function which is just a part of our self.  That self is a working body with a brain and a nervous system, and it is the product of millions of years of evolution.  The human brain is likely the most complex object in the natural world, and scientists are still figuring out how it works.  That it can do some amazing tricks therefore shouldn't be surprising.

They already know how it works. Turns out, it's not really that complex.

No they don’t and yes it is.

Have you ever thought of contributing something - anything - of value to this forum?

Boru

(July 3, 2025 at 12:22 pm)Ahriman Wrote: They already know how it works. Turns out, it's not really that complex.

Maybe yours isn't that complex, but the vast majority of humans have a brain so complex that understanding how it works to create consciousness has thus far eluded scientists.