(January 5, 2012 at 5:20 am)Godschild Wrote: Death is waiting

Is that another god you have? Don't you have eternal life?

I'm old. There's no death waiting; there are the organics, consuming entropy, keeping I local to the identity. When the organics fail, identity is lost; non-locality occurs.

It's that boring. The organics might get excited about it, but they ain't flying this airplane.

What difference does it make? If what must be done is dangerous you only hope the fear won't get in the way. Now living is a pretty sweet deal but it turns out to have an expiration date. No one looks forward to that date, unless they've been drinking the kool aid and have begun looking forward to the delusional.

Some fear is necessary. Fear of death keeps you from completely squandering your precious life. It allows for the feeling of exhilaration you get on a roller coaster. It sometimes gives you a little pump of adrenaline to get you through a tight spot. Like it or lump it, you're in. You're alive so you're going to be dead. The only way to avoid it is to hypnotize yourself into believing you have a whole heaven full of virgins waiting for you on the other side. The fear will still be there and make you neurotic as hell but it will allow you to talk a good game. I think I'd prefer to take my fear straight, no mixer.

I just don't get it whateverist. How is life precious w/o God? I mean I understand how we could perceive it to be precious w/o God, but that perception is just illusory isn't it? Without God aren't life and death ultimately meaningless?

As far as I can understand life has real meaning and there must be something real which we call "God" OR any "meaning" in life is illusory and people choose to believe in the illusion of God to give their life meaning.

Believing that meaning is real but that "God" is illusory doesn't make any sense. It's exactly the same belief.

If someone could explain how life has real meaning without "God" I am all ears. Honestly I'm not trying to get into an argument I just want to hear the rationalization.

If you believe it can't and it doesn't that's fine, it's just a difference of opinion. I AM NOT ATTACKING ANYONE's BELIEFS.

(January 5, 2012 at 5:47 am)Godschild Wrote: I'm getting older and do not feel like that kind of excitement anymore, if I were to ride a bike now I probably would drive right into death's door.

Can't live life in bubble rap. Life is about how well you live it, not living in fear of the end and in hope of another life (that may never come). You gotta live on the assumption that there is no other life. That this life is all you've got.
I like to ride my push bike up to 30mph along the cycle track and often without a helmet and yet I don't believe in any afterlife and have accepted that if I hit anything, I may never wake up. But life really is one big ride but like all rides, it has an end. It has it's ups and downs and many people perceive it in many ways. Some can't see life as anything without belief in god, while many of those who lack such beliefs have no trouble finding beauty and meaning in life.

Didn't think theists should worry about dying. You think you're going to heaven after all. I don't believe in any afterlife and yet being dead is not so frightening. Probably because I won't be aware that I'm dead or even existed for that matter.

(January 5, 2012 at 5:20 am)Godschild Wrote: When you're old, how do you know that you're going to get old, how do you know you will be alive a year from now? Death is waiting silently around the corner and no one knows when they will turn that corner and walk straight into deaths grip.

True. I could die at any second. I cannot know what will happen to me in the near future, but I do hope that I will only die after I've lived my life long and well.

@ KichigaiNeko and Ace Otana, People do not have to always live for the excitement of the moment, I've been there and done that and understand the thrill, it's not that important to me now. I have plenty of joy in my life now and that joy more than makes up for those thrill rides. I work with wood, building furniture, when a piece comes out well I receive great joy from the first of the project to the last coat of finish. Question would either of you push a piece of wood past a 10" saw blade moving at a couple thousand rpms. and your fingers less than an inch from the blade. Believe me it's no thrill ride, it scares the whiz out of me, who says that a dangerous activity always translates into excitement, not me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5TMpIgUDLw

Words can't describe my excitement!

(January 5, 2012 at 11:24 am)amkerman Wrote: I just don't get it whateverist. How is life precious w/o God? I mean I understand how we could perceive it to be precious w/o God, but that perception is just illusory isn't it? Without God aren't life and death ultimately meaningless?

As far as I can understand life has real meaning and there must be something real which we call "God" OR any "meaning" in life is illusory and people choose to believe in the illusion of God to give their life meaning.

Believing that meaning is real but that "God" is illusory doesn't make any sense. It's exactly the same belief.

If someone could explain how life has real meaning without "God" I am all ears. Honestly I'm not trying to get into an argument I just want to hear the rationalization.

If you believe it can't and it doesn't that's fine, it's just a difference of opinion. I AM NOT ATTACKING ANYONE's BELIEFS.

No worries. I don't feel attacked but I have to tell you what you say sounds so strange to my ear. I find plenty of meaning in my life without any belief in god. So that makes me wonder if we're using "meaning" in the same way.

I'm guessing you mean there are consequences for your actions living life the way you do. So perhaps for you "meaning" results from there being a pay off or accounting afterwords based on the way you live your life. You're carrying a score card and if you can post a low enough sin count, you may make the cut. That will permit you to go on endlessly and keep you out of hell. But will you find any meaning in heaven? If no one is keeping score once you make it to the other side, will your existence lose all meaning?

I know, you expect to be united with everyone you ever loved and in the company of God, etc, but will such an existence have any meaning for you if there is no longer any score card. If you think there is a way to find meaning in such an after life, then I suggest to you that that is the sort of meaning I find right here and now in my mortal life. While I suspect you expect to find glory and wonder in a wondrous place called heaven, I find glory and wonder in this wondrous world we live in. For me heaven is a state of mind I can inhabit some of the time.

(January 5, 2012 at 2:52 pm)Godschild Wrote: @ KichigaiNeko and Ace Otana, People do not have to always live for the excitement of the moment, I've been there and done that and understand the thrill, it's not that important to me now.

I am not saying it is 'important'

(January 5, 2012 at 2:52 pm)Godschild Wrote: I have plenty of joy in my life now and that joy more than makes up for those thrill rides. I work with wood, building furniture, when a piece comes out well I receive great joy from the first of the project to the last coat of finish.

Excellent!! I don't need a god to work with wood either!! Or any of my other hobbies...(which I am anticipating getting back to after the house construction)

(January 5, 2012 at 2:52 pm)Godschild Wrote: Question would either of you push a piece of wood past a 10" saw blade moving at a couple thousand rpms. and your fingers less than an inch from the blade. Believe me it's no thrill ride, it scares the whiz out of me, who says that a dangerous activity always translates into excitement, not me.

Yep probably would do that... and what you have described is the "Zen Moment" all motorcyclists get to when it just comes down to your skill to get you out of a tight spot!

I have witnessed so many who are over the age of 5 decades just giving up and withering slowly away. I do like to apply what humble skills I have to keeping my mind and body active...at the same time knowing that tomorrow I may not wake up. I have no faith in a reward system for living so I do the best NOW with what I have...and god's score card can go get knotted!

I dont "expect" to be united with anyone (I actually fear many people will not be there, I fear for myself). I have no idea what happens after death. I believe that my soul/mind/consciousness is eternal and that if I can have faith in Jesus Christ and ask for forgiveness of all my wrongs I will be one with God. A state of perfect love. That is what I beleve the meaning to life is, and the meaning to all existence, and what "God" is: the perfection of love. I beleve that perfection is incomprehensible. That it is the only meaning. If the consciousnesses of my relatives and such are also one with God I guess I will be with them too, but I'm not even sure how consciousness will operate after-death. I guess I expect a non-locality.

The "real meaning" I am referring to is not a result from a pay-off. in my sense "meaning" just means striving to love. It's a belief in absolute right and wrong. Absolute good and bad. I believe that treating others with respect and loving your neighbor is actually the correct way to live regardless of whether or not I choose to live that way, and even though it often feels better not to live that way It is not an open question. Because I believe this I necessarily believe in God. I can still prove neither, it's just my belief.

I'll give an example (and I'm taking it to the extremes because it challenges our views the most and forces us to make a de):

An absolutist sees his wife murdered and becomes enraged because he believes a great injustice was done. - real meaning; right and wrong actually exist; murder is wrong. It is wrong because it is away from perfect love: the meaning of life,also called "God".

A relativeist sees his wife murdered and believes a great injustice was done because he becomes enraged. - illusory meaning; subjective opinions exist, "right" and "wrong" do NOT exist apart from ones personal feelings.

If you believe that "meaning" is real apart from your personal feelings, you can replace "God" with "meaning" and it's still the same belief. Even if you don't believe in "God", if you believe that right and wrong exist apart from our personal feelings, they must have come from somewhere. There must be an absolute standard. That standard does not subject itself to rigorous proof. It necessitates faith. It is impossible to believe in one and not the other; at least from where I'm standing.

If you are like the relativist and believe that "meaning" is illusory and doesn't exist but for personal feelings then it is the opposite. It is impossible to believe in God and believe that "meaning" is illusory. You are still able to live well and be moral and good, but you can't believe that "moral" "good" or "love" actually exist apart from out personal feelings about them. Once we're done that's it that's all, existence finito.

Hope that helps.